I get that libs can't conceive of state violence as violence, but I don't get how advocating state violence on twitter dot com doesn't fall under advocating violence :agony-shivering:
Thank goodness for the free thinkers and their oddly unwavering support of indiscriminate slaughter
What are you talking about? They obviously can, if it's about US official enemies.
So you're saying preventing this would save Palestinian lives and potentially cause IDF depression and suicide?
I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around this, like WTF is going on in here?
https://twitter.com/IxAshenxI/status/1392953594949902336?s=20
"WhY dOn'T yOu ExPreSs YoUr SoLiDaRiTy On HaMaS' tWiTtEr PaGe?"
Why the fuck there are so many Hindus bootlicking the fucking IDF? Is it because they are nationalists and they hate Pakistan (and therefore, Palestine)?
It's sooo 2021 we can follow a genocidal campaign on twitter btw.
I think Hindu nationalists like the religious war aspect of it and hate Muslims.
Funniest/saddest part is watching Israelis absolutely shit on them for their ethnicity
they want Indian soldiers to kill Muslims and they'll support whoever is actively killing Muslims
I think this has to do with imperialist vs anti-imperialist blocs. India is part of the Quad, so they're an accessory to US imperialism along with Israel.
yeah saw a few people posting saying some variation of “Solidarity from Pakistan” so it leads me to believe it is that
An indian national also died via rocket strike apparently, not saying Modi killed him for propaganda but he'd totally ice someone for that...
So many of the irl lefty people I know side with Israel, I don't really understand why
I feel like a lot of us who were leftists before bernie have always understood that being pro Palestine is an essential part of being a leftist. A lot of younger "leftists" have never really had to wrestle with this issue before and are falling for the bullshit
All of us who were critical of Sanders' lack of anti imperialism were told to shut up because it would turn off these new budding "leftists". If you're trying to build a leftist movement in the Belly of the Imperial Beast and all you're doing is fighting for a more equal distribution of imperial plunder, you're not creating leftists, you're creating Succdem Imperialists.
leftism is when you loot the third world so the imperial core can have universal health care
Marching outside wall street with a sign reading:
"SHARE THE 3RD WORLD'S SURPLUS VALUE WITH ME!"
The word "terrorist" seem to be a major factor in doing this. People are extremely easy to turn against anything labelled as terrorism.
Remind them that Nelson Mandela's org was called a terrorist irg and placed on official terrorist org lists.
Libs actually don't know this and get pissed about comparisons to Mandela. They think he was Gandhi or something.
Gandhi really was the perfect liberal sheepdog for the Brits, wasn't he?
If the US calls you a terrorist it means you're cool, if Parenti or leftists call you a terrorist, you have US funding.
It hasn't. Most college-aged people I know refer to Israel as terrorists regularly. Is it more of a US/EU thing?
Israel is to Judaism what Ghislaine Maxwell is to Believe all Women
Thinking specifically of that account her brothers made actually doing this.
I can't imagine any sort of activist position that didn't include Palestinian solidarity.
Imagine knowing literally nothing about the topic and suddenly a major world event happens and you believe the first pro israel infographic/tweet you see on instagram because it's clothed in 'woke' language.
Spread Finkelstein's Gaza. When I was first wanted to learn more about the conflict, I'd feel so overwhelmed due to ongoing nature of the conflict and the lack of truly objective sources writing about years and years of history.
People on any part of the political spectrum who want to learn more about the conflict simply don't know who to trust. They don't want to talk out of their ass when discussing the topic. So you give them Finkelstein who gives a strong historical overview of the conflict.
i saw one getting reposted that was literally like framing the whole conflict as just antisemites versus Israel. really disgusting
Many western leftists have imperialist tendencies and like swallowing US propaganda. Maybe that's why?
Pretty much. As much as they want to avoid admitting it, cultural elements of their environment have stuck with them. It's very hard to break out of a cultural bind and very few ever accomplish that.
Is the problem just time? Does the western left need more time for anti-imperialists to chip away at liberalism?
I wish I knew. I'm technically part of the West too. But Latin America is in a weird position where it is and isn't part of the West, depending on who you ask.
Oh, when I say West I meant more the chauvinist type you see in the US, western Europe. I don't mean like Evo Morales.
Us baby leftys start out seeing Nazis going after Jewish folks, making an incorrect assumption that "All Jews are Good" and "Israel is their safe space and should be defended." Also, the incredibly online folks who have watched people being cancelled/harrassed over supporting Palestine over Israel and coming away with the opinion that "welp, if that many people are bullying for that position, it must be the correct one."
This is exactly what I've seen. They use the holocaust as a shield to deflect any criticism of the genocide they are waging against Palestine. Anything said against Israel is drowned out by a chorus of people yelling antisemitism.
I've seen the "Israel deserves to exist because Jewish people need a safe Homeland just for them" upbeared on Hexbear dot net.
this is the main thing I seem to see. It's also I think what makes the constant "antisemitism" accusations in response to criticism of the colonist Israel apartheid state so derailing, even when they're obviously fucking stupid.
They go after Jewish people who have even the mildest critiques of Israel as if they're calling for harm to be done to Jewish people. So many people, especially academics and at some level, media people are legit afraid to voice their opinions on the matter, even so much as utter the word Palestine. That's pretty absurd in itself, but it seems to genuinely be working so :/
this is undoubtedly going to sound pretty snobbish and pretentious but usually I judge how left someone truly is by their stance on Israel and Palestine. If they even so much as try to both sides it, I just assume a lot about them. I don't hate them or anything, but this is by far one of the most paramount issues of our time and if you truly call yourself an anti-imperialist or some variation of socialist or communist and also both sides/support Israel, I'll take a lot of what they say with a huge cup of salt. It's a tricky topic to tackle at first for westerners or really anyone who pays too much attention to mainstream media, but it isn't so complicated doing a little bit of reading and understanding can't give you a bigger picture and perspective of what is actually going down there.
Why not go straight for the DPRK? Propaganda too thick such that you can't reasonably expect someone to have a good take?
I mean, my take on North Korea is that it sucks, but it's because we made it suck, literally destroyed every building and killed 20% of the population. Like remember how fascist things got after 3 American buildings got hit by planes? The USA lost its shit even more than it already had. Now imagine instead of 3 buildings, it was all buildings, literally every skyscraper, every home, every shop, hit by an airplane and burnt to the ground. And if we lost like, 75 million people.
The USA in that circumstance would nuke the world - just end life on Earth immediately. We'd be choked out by our own nuclear ash. The DPRK reacted absolutely tamely in comparison, and while most of the propaganda about them is just unhinged lies, it's not like, a good place with a good system. It's approximately the best it could be though, given what happened.
It's a lot more of an obfuscated place than Israel. The lies about Israel are so blatant, and the truths are really so bare. It's right in front of us. That's why it's a better litmus test.
The lies about Israel are so blatant, and the truths are really so bare. It’s right in front of us.
This just makes it an easier test to pass. To find people who are actually serious about anti-imperialism, using the DPRK as a gauge actually challenges people to go against the overwhelming negative public perception. It was more difficult to challenge propaganda on Iraq BEFORE the US went in and that was when it mattered the most. It's easy to go along with the herd and sit there after the fact of millions of destroyed lives and condemn the US. Such a weak anti-imperialism can't prevent wars, all it does is react after the US is done wrecking a place.
All I'm saying is that Israel tests a person's values, DPRK tests a person's knowledge.
That's fair. The problem is values alone is what the US weaponizes so effectively. They throw up atrocity propaganda in Iraq and people with the correct values fall in line. Knowledge is what prevents a person from being used by the US.
I didn't say that at all, I simply said I'll take what they with more caution. This conflict has been going on for a very long time now and if you're serious about being an anti-imperialist, you should not be supporting Israel. The US doesn't give billions to the DPRK, if you're an American leftist and you support the idea of the US giving death and destruction to Palestine, I will have reserved thoughts. Again, I don't hate people who don't get it, or get it yet.
No I mean like why choose Israel-Palestine as the conflict for gauging how serious someone is as an anti-imperialist? Why not choose the DPRK as a gauge instead? It's demonized to a far greater extent than anything else, including PRC. Do you think it's unreasonable to use the DPRK as a gauge given the extra difficulty in breaking past related propaganda, while Palestine is much easier?
I really don't agree with your take that DPRK is more demonized to a "far greater extent" considering there is an actual war with people dying constantly in Palestine. They are both demonized in their own ways. The media/state department demonize the DPRK, but south korea is not actively invading and killing people like Israel is to Palestine. Both supported by the US, one is definitely worse right now. Both the DPRK and Palestine have extreme amounts of propaganda associated with them, and there is nuance here with how sanctions work, but currently, right now, I do fear for Palestine and its people greatly because there is an actual active war being waged on them. The DPRK is at least semi-protected by China, and while the cease fire never truly ended there isn't the same type of escalation involved the same way it is in Palestine. I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say, I don't think it also has to be some white or black scenario where if someone has a shitty opinion on Palestine but a good opinion on DPRK, I just don't just throw out all of their opinions because their opinion sucks on Palestine. I would absolutely accept that the person has at least tried to understand the situation they maybe cared about more in that situation. It's just an arbitrary bar I've come to use on people if I'm unsure of their standing. If I get to know them more, this can also easily change, just as I can probably explain to them why I think they should reconsider how they feel about both those conflicts.
The reason I say that DPRK is demonized to a greater extent is because they aren't placed in a victim role in western imagination. How many people before this week do you think have even heard of the word 'Palestine' compared to 'North Korea'? The reason DPRK is faring better is because they can defend themselves with a state, not so much due to the propaganda leveled at it. I agree with everything else you're saying, I was just curious why you didn't use the more (in my mind) demonized gauge.
I can't really break down exactly why I always think or do what I do in a certain way tbh with you. But I do think that Palestine is heavily associated with Hamas which has become another word for "terrorism" in the US at the same time. Also because I know actual Palestinians and they also helped radicalize me when I was still figuring things out, and it has made it just slightly more personal. I've witnessed the tears and stories of explaining to me why they can't hire a babysitter because they're so worried if one of the parents isn't with their child at all times they will be lost or separated forever. Shit like that effected me on a much more personal level. I'm constantly more worried about the people of Palestine, I think the DPRK has for the most part, done an incredible job providing for the people as best they can with what they have. I don't think the average person in the DPRK live in constant fear like they do in Palestine. The DPRK does have a much more sizeable standing army at the very least, Palestine smuggles or jerryrigs everything they make, it's a bit harder for them to defend themselves.
I think things could be a lot better if the US wasn't such a barbaric country for both of those places too. But Palestine is on my mind a lot more than the DPRK, and personal bias is a thing too. I know at least one person who has actually been able to visit the DPRK on a tourism type deal, but they were more in it for the thrill of going there than having some other feelings for wanting to be there/check it out.
Yeah, this is why I said the DPRK was far more demonized to @JoesFrackinJack. You get hostile reactions, you get weird looks for praising the DPRK (North Korea). You bring up Palestine in the US and more likely than not the reply you get is "What's Palestine?"
It would put you off because you expect them to sound like radlib "anarchists" or because you expect them to know better already?
from what i heard so far, mostly that Israel is defending itself from Islamic terrorists
I've seen so many people acting like there were suddenly rockets flying at Israel for literally no reason, and I'm sure at least some of them are merely ignorant. It's so cool living immersed in a whole ass ocean of genocidal media
It’s also really easy to start the story at ‘those hamas want to destroy Israel and are constantly attacking it’ without ever asking, or thinking to ask why.
The history is memory-holed, and whenever the question is asked, you get the same platitudes and racism that helped start the Iraq war
They fucking attacked a mosque on a holiday last week, it's not even history :agony-4horsemen:
They blame everything on Hamas, even innocent people who have nothing to do with Hamas being shot protesting their border wall and all the media ever talks about is Hamas being a terrorist org, they just eventually assume all of Palestine is Hamas/supports Hamas. Completely manufactured reality
Lots of leftist support in the early days of Israel, dunno if it's related though
It didn't take long for the Soviet/communist immigrants to realize what the fuck was going on and stop coming. For a while they expected some sort of unified one state with representation like Yugoslavia, but instead got fascism backed by American dollars and NATO firepower.
Praying for IDF casualties, may they burn and suffer in hell forever with the other Nazis.
Maddow's show is on in 20 minutes. I wonder if enough happened for her to finally give a fuck about Gaza and at least "report" on it for 60+ seconds.
According to MSNBC's transcripts, Maddow did not mention Gaza or Israel at all this week.
Maddow? LMAO
50-50 chance I turn on the channel and she's talking about Dmitri Alexeiyodorovich, the coffee boy at GRU.
i just went from, "good joke" to "wait is that really a thing she is still talking about" to "no that's for a joke, clearly made up name" again to "okay she probably is doing that still but that name is definitely made up though"
"Important information about Russia. Stay with us..." The ads start. Four minutes later she comes back. "The thing about Russia is..." five minutes later she gets to her point - so to speak - "Can you believe this - they drink coffee in Russia! Now, let's learn what's happening with the coffee boy..."
You'd figure enough Russians migrated to Israel that she'd cover it.
“Can you believe this - there are Russians in Israel. Why? Stay with us to find out!"
Hey thanks, I sent them some money because you posted this. Seems like a good cause. I'm really feeling helpless over all this and at least giving money can help in some small way.
Providing money is one of the best ways to make a real impact when it'd directed correctly. While publicity and multimedia are great tools to gain visibility on such issues, they fall flat when it comes to making a real material impact. As plenty of us know around here, thoughts and prayers don't mean shit - material goods to improve the conditions on the ground do.
So lets try to spread this info around and try to get as much funds for supplies for MAP as we can rally. I hate saying this but they're going to need every cent in the coming hours and days.
It's going to be a bloodbath. Go to the rally in your city this weekend.
Fuck. The #FreePalestine tag is already full of bombings and deaths..
I can't treat this like a spectator sport, even ironically. It's an extremely well funded military that will probably massacre a ton of civilians.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1392980623732600835
(Content warning by the way, no death, but absolute fear and screaming children)
Talking head general on MSNBC right now: "The Israelis will take any measures needed to stop the attacks..." And he said Israel faces an "existential threat".
It made me want to vomit.
