https://twitter.com/shaun_vids/status/1446396109945987099?t=hVxfiI91ddUdiC25E9cUQw&s=19
I'm not mad at the steamer. I'm mad that this is the state of the young American left. Talking about streamers. There are no parties or movements or platforms. It's just a guy streaming on twitch as all discourse follows the orbit of whatever is happening in his life. For every 1 person working and organizing on the ground, the energy of another 1000 potential active leftists is wasted on the daily drama of streamers and podcasters.
A few weeks ago, I posted an essay about basically this. The commons that social media is enclosing is our attention, our socialization, and therefore our ability to organize. They are in the business of converting attention directly to capital and vice-versa on a scale that didn’t exist prior. And of course, our interests are fundamentally misaligned.
The network effect is the tendency of certain commodities to become more valuable as more people have access to them. Phones lines are like this. Importantly, so are the commodified images of celebrities all the way from the Kardashians down to Vaush. So we give our attention to social networks and the networks then lend that attention who are capable of producing more. For example, if your favorite streamer is on a social network, you may visit more often, so the network lending that streamer your attention will be a net gain in attention overall.
Since these companies are looking to maximize engagement, the attention centralizes on a small number of people because, thanks to the networking effect, that attention is more valuable when centralized than it would be if it were distributed evenly. And of course they can’t let any of the highly-viewed figures be too revolutionary, so you have a manufactured-consent-style filter going on.
As it turns out, organizations are more resilient and capable when connections between people are redundant and plentiful rather than centralized, so this is a model that fundamentally disrupts our ability to organize and larger proportions of human time are spent on corporate social networks.
Honestly I think the whole "We don't have a party, movement, or platform" thing and the fact people immediately try to shut you up if you ask where the some 300+ million the left has raised over the last few years is going are heavily related.
Didn't most of that go to Bernie?
Besides, twitch subscriptions are, uh, not money that the left has raised. And that's really what we're talking about when we're discussing streamer income.
For a leftist streamer whose subscribers and Patreon lean heavily to the left, there is an opportunity cost involved
The discourse follows him purely because right-wingers prop this shit up to try and invalidate his message. It's literally just the "you have iPhone" argument but bigger. What's sad is that people fall for it every time. I also think a lot of people waste time on this shit because they feel they have no power and this online culture war feels like a replacement for them. I wish they'd take this energy IRL.
Literally never misses. Love how he makes so many twitter leftists mad with basic bitch building block lefty thoughts
Its cause he takes his time and doesn't try to comment on everything. He only puts himself in the spotlight when its going to be positive.
I think people are upset because when you have a movement that runs almost entirely on volunteer labor and donations while the top of it is millionaires it makes the left look like an MLM scheme. Like the whole thing is just arriving in the same space the progressive NGOs did where they realize they can manage a profitable coexistence with the issues rather than really trying to solve anything.
In what sense are twitch streamers "at the top" of the movement? I think this is an illusion that you get if you're just online. Is Hasan a big topic of discussion at your local Food Not Bombs?
where they realize they can manage a profitable coexistence with the issues rather than really trying to solve anything.
They're streamers! Why do you expect them to "solve" anything? That's simply not what they are.
I think the bigger issue is some of these streamers are habitually incorrect assholes, and it's painful to see someone make a shitload of money being both wrong and counterproductive.
Skull boy is right, though, and the house discourse is dumb.
Even bigger issue is that, as @ABigguhPizzahPieh points out in his comment, half the American left revolves around fundamentally unproductive shit like parasocial relationships with streamers. They're probably more of a symptom than a cause, though.
It's a symptom of the long degeneration of the left in North America, Western Europe, and maybe even the world. Capital is more international than ever but socialists are more and more atomized, and the parties that remain are bound up within national borders. People ask where is our Lenin or our Luxembourg, but those two weren't celebrity intellectuals that just happened to be really smart. They were part of a massive international party, a real force capable of thinking about what is going on and what to do not just in one place but everywhere. They were smart and capable in a way we can't produce anymore because there is no party or movement. There is a lot to do and unfortunately we're stuck in this loop of being mad at another streamer or podcaster
The top in that he's one of the most visible leftist in the country and the second thing is the point I'm making. There's nothing stopping the streamers from doing what the older leftist leaders did and using that status to fund larger efforts.
It's just an obvious point of conflict to me that if you constantly tell people to organize from scratch and donate to this thing or that, it is going to be an issue when people realize the money is already there.
Skullboi articulates the angry noises in my head into an actual human language.
i disagree, if a leftist youtuber/streamer etc makes millions a year, maybe just maybe they should cap the income they pocket at something like 300k and donate the rest to charity/mutual aid groups/leftist orgs etc..
It’s one thing to suggest giving money to socialist organizing and quite another to suggest putting money toward charity/mutual aid. Marxist analysis shows that the latter are counterproductive, so it shouldn’t be surprising most people don’t support them
From ultras to succdems. I do mean literally everybody. Even the theory nerds that know wtf it actually means will occasionally and/or accidentally use it in the red charity context.
Yeah okay there’s definitely some brainworms there. I think the theory nerds and activist crowd would get a lot out of seeing more overlap between each other. I’ve definitely seen orgs do the red charity thing because they didn’t understand how or why to build power structures and community resilience. And I’ve seen plenty of people argue about this who have never actually volunteered. I just don’t think this is all mutual
In other words, #NotAllMutualAid
It's not supposed to be charity, but I very rarely see orgs do "mutual aid" that isn't just charity.
Nearly all activity in my area that is labeled as mutual aid isn't actually mutual aid, but is charity.
You still put them in the same category. Is it counterproductive for a socialist to give money to mutual aid organizations?
Yeah. I’m not talking about engaging in solidarity with others — that’s part and parcel of being a socialist — but mutual aid doesn’t aid in struggle, it just eases the conscience of those doing it and, if you’re lucky, makes suffering more bearable. Every dollar that’s spent in mutual aid is a dollar not spent on bail support or a strike fund. We need to be clear-minded about our priorities.
Yeah, mutual aid groups regularly earmark money for bail/strike funds. And like you’ve implied here, building community, which is integral to all effective organizing, can’t be done with purely transactional arrangements.
If you don’t consider strike funds to be a form of mutual aid, then we’re not talking about the same thing
Yeah, I’ve never heard that called mutual aid. I’m talking about the anarchist concept
There’s a lot of mutual aid that isn’t called that by name. But from personal experience, there are indeed mutual aid groups who work closely with local unions or focus on bail for protestors. There’s a lot of “gift economy” type stuff in some areas that would constitute mutual aid being done by people who aren’t even leftists
ITT: Financially comfortable twitter leftists getting big mad about the poors mocking their parasocial rich friend
I don't really care about the people in question, but it's ugly and vulgar to have money. Regardless of whether they are just an entertainer, or whether they have good politics or not. I'm not envious because I don't want a life of extreme wealth for myself, I'm not a child to think like that. It's just embarassing to have a great lot of money, its a sign of bad taste, weak morality, and boring attitudes. Its an asshole move to own expensive property and its good that people are shamed for it.
A giant McMansion is the same as a tesla is the same as a 35 dollar cocktail is the same as a hellicopter, only real assholes would want those
No no hell no fuck helicopters. I would rather be trapped in a hamster wheel and roll myself across the country than ride a helicopter for 5 minutes.
Those things are cursef death machines that defy nature.
Not all helicopters are Blackhawks ya know :-P
But also... yeah.
At least Blackhawks can do loop-de-loops, barrel rolls, and corkscrews before they yeet themselves into the dirt at 200 miles per hour
You ever seen helicopter aerobatics? Especially RC ones where the pilot doesn't need to be (as) suicidal? Shit's wild.
I do because I've been in them when the pilot wasn't hungover and wanted to turn the crew section into a vomit comet.
I didn't know people needed a reason to yell GET IN THE CHOPPAAAAH more often, but there it is.
Not just millionaires, people that earn millions in USD a year.
This, like the wallstreetbets drama at the beginning of the year, unironically shows how straight up rich some people are on here
when leftist movements don’t have much mass support in a country, leftism tends to be the domain of downwardly mobile petite-bourgeoise intellectuals
western_left.tiff
Time to worry about labour aristocracy because let's be frank it's all aesthetics at this point.
Or maybe I can hate streamers and recognize these things as systemic issues? I can, in fact, walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.
This is some pot calling the kettle black stuff with the 'wasted energy'. I like the skull boi, but seriously, grow up and realize that pretty much all online discourse is wasted energy, unless it is specifically political coalition building that has some reflection in a community of meat bits.
This whole thing feels like weird twitch people reflexively defending their streamer guy, not something that anyone else should care about. I've seen far more people who like Hasan up in arms than right wingers who think it's hypocritical. Maybe the guy should explain what he's doing with the money that's good? It's revealing how much people want to waste their breath defending someone buying a mansion or making a couple million a year. China was right to target fanboy cults.
This whole thing feels like weird twitch people reflexively defending their streamer guy, not something that anyone else should care about
tbf hes been in the news constantly for the past month or so for the same thing over and over again, so its just people getting used to repeating the same point over and over and over again
Hasan has obviously been secretly funding the Maoist insurgency in the Philippines, and is trying to not blow his cover
he's right, but like, why are we doin this thread that twitter already did 50 times two weeks ago?
I think it came up again as a topic following the twitch hack where people could access how much streamers earn.
Not sure if this is even specifically about Hasan.
Wonder if maybe someone is looking to instigate a struggle and is recycling the hits 🧐
There's a difference between earning money and literally being in the top 0.1% of income earners in the USA for just sitting in front of a camera lol
No one is saying that leftists with money must live like monks and take a vow of poverty, but buying a manision and literally being part of the top 0.1% is another thing entirely
I think focus needs to be on the structures of exploitation, not on individual wealth. The Hasan discourse is unproductive and a lot of the time concedes the ancap argument about communism requiring individuals to give up their wealth. Hasan could donate 90% of his income to FNB or PSL and it wouldn’t do shit. He could be leveraging his community to encourage people to organize, but I don’t watch him enough or participate in his community, so I don’t know if they do that already.
All that said, people who have to struggle every fucking day to get food on their tables have every right to be pissed about seeing money wasted on that fucking house by someone who is nominally on our team. My truck just broke down so I’m going to be walking everywhere or bumming rides for at least two weeks. It could be fixed tomorrow for what Hasan pays a month to have his pool cleaned (or however often people with mansions clean a pool idc). I’m regularly eating at soup kitchens and have had several days where all I ate were these nasty bags of dried fruit that they give us. I’m not jealous of a mansion. I’m jealous of not having to do eat shitty food and spend several hours of my day to walking around an area designed for people with cars. I’m jealous of having healthcare. Like low key fuck Hasan a little bit.
But nothing I can do about that so I just gotta deal because it’s not productive. I’m done now. Hope some can PMC folks here can understand this isn’t a purely abstract principled discussion for everyone.
The only good post in this thread. Solidarity.
The only reason I'm not in your situation right now is a fucking lucky circumstance involving cheap rent and a very non judgemental girlfriend.
Also, can you apply for EBT/Foodstamps? They've been making it pretty easy to apply since the pandemic and the money is a fucking godsend.
I make over the threshold and they just ended the pandemic relief stuff. My partner and I struggle moreso because we financially support our parents. When we don’t, their utilities get shut off every other month. Last winter I found my mother in law unconscious in their house while it was ~0°F out. Fun fact: they’re not allowed to shut your heat off in the winter, but if your heat is already off when winter hits, they don’t have to turn it back on
Solidarity, comrade. Glad to hear about your good fortune. I’m very thankful for my partner as well.
Fuck. Good on you for taking care of them. That's something to take pride in. You're doing awesome, this shit just fucking sucks.
No, he is still a worker.
He is a well paid worker. And that morally obligates him to help his fellow wprkers in was he might ot migbt not have been. He is however not bourgeois.
When he uses his stream money to pay others to stream for him, then underpays him then he is part of thr bourgeois doespite bwing s small one and potentially helping smaller leftist streamers
There is an argument to be made that he's petit bourgeois, as he buys others labour (video editors, moderators, social media managers, etc), while not owning the means of production
If twitch says so his career is gone. If I was a brave. Man I would look up the stuff about pesants and small free holders and the relations between them for the most direxrly aplicable analogy Howeevr I don't think I have the strngth in me to be that online today
If twitch says so his career is gone.
Well yeah. Same for anyone that does not own the means of production. That's why I specified petit bourgeois.
I see him as being more a peasant class wise. The troublesomw french kind that made organization difficult. I however do nor have it in em to show my work on this one. I can't remember what work discusses it and ai cant be bothered to look it up.
True! People need to understand money is not class. Even those athletes making $100,000,000 are still, technically, workers because they sell their labor. Now if they go open a clothing brand and make most of their money from owning that then they're no longer a worker. The highly paid athlete, while rich, stops getting paid if they stop working, where as the owner cutting their checks gets paid regardless of if they wake up that day.
Class is determined by ownership, not income.
And lastly, bourgeoisie can be class traitors and advocate for socialism, see Engels. Though they need to be scrutinized much more closely, it is still technically possible.
This is a bit oversimplified though. Those that do earn a lot of money, like athletes, are able to purchase other people's labour due to earning so much money, even if they don't own the means of production. Hasan for instance, will employ people like video editors and moderators. Athletes will employ trainers, physiotherapists, etc. Due to their high income, and ability to use other's labour to further benefit them, their class interests are more likely to align with the people that own the means of production, even though they do not own it themselves.
This isn't even considering the modern "PMC", I'm not mentioning it because there's a lot of disagreement there
"they are able to..." Yes, but if they don't then they're still workers. If you get paid a wage contingent on your labor, you're a worker. If you make money from scalping other peoples' labor, you're petite or bourgeoisie.
As for PMC, if one isn't a manager that manages people that they decide to hire/fire, then they're not PMC. That phrase has been so butchered online.
The thing is once people earn that much money, 99% of the time they do employ others. It's how capitalism functions
People use it to mean professional media class and professional managerial class. Its stright iut the window now.
Yes. Anyone that earns over 1.6 million USD a year is in the top 0.1%. Hasan literally earns more than that lol.
It's a fact
Even with relatively low returns, and a high tax rate, $1.6 mil/year gives you enough cash to make a 6 figure income from it without touching the initial investment pretty quickly.
Because the interest accrued is probably less than half of what is realistic with historic trends. The tax rate assumed is unreasonably large for business as well, as he doesn't make a salary, he makes income.
as he doesn’t make a salary, he makes income
Please explain the difference.
What happens when the money goes from Hasan Inc. to Hasan Piker, individual?
It often never has to! If my dad can save on his taxes with a trucker's income, I'm sure the million dollar a year business can figure it out.
Oh I know! It gets taxed (again, which is actually good btw, "double taxation" is fake news) at the individual rate!
What actually happens is most of it doesn't. He probably pays himself a salary out of the business, but the money being invested (i.e. "wealth") likely never leaves the business side of things.
What actually happens is most of it doesn’t.
An assumption on your part.
This discussion exists in a vacuum of facts.
Well, given that he makes well over a million a year, and therefore almost definitely has an accountant, what I said above is a virtual guarantee.
Unless you think he told his accountant "please maximize the taxes I pay to the federal government". Like, I agree that the house discourse is pointless, but it's also ridiculous to say that that kind of income won't convert to wealth quickly and easily.
This discussion exists in a vacuum of facts.
Yeah, that's why people are making reasonable assumptions. That's why I use words like "probably" and "likely".
ridiculous to say that that kind of income won’t convert to wealth quickly and easily.
I never said that, so that's good
This whole thread of argument started with you pointing out the distinction between income and wealth. The whole point of this argument is that with that much income, it easily becomes wealth.
But it isn't yet. And saying he's in the 0.1% is pointless if you're not talking about wealth, because then you're (not YOU I know) putting the streamer in the same category as billionaire capitalists, which only obscures things further.
But it isn’t yet.
You don't know that, I don't know that, no one knows that. We can only make reasonable assumptions. And the reasonable assumption is that he'd act in his own interest, talk to an accountant, and invest the money, thereby making it wealth.
This is like assuming that a soccer player who makes a few million doesn't invest the money. Of course he would, why wouldn't he?
I certainly wouldn't put him in the same category as billionaire bourgeois though, and I'm sure the person who said "0.1%" wouldn't either. But he's clearly wealthy, and that's more likely than not to affect his behavior.
and I’m sure the person who said “0.1%” wouldn’t either.
Except that by saying that, they have done that. That's the crux of my issue here.
For the record, salary IS income. Both for tax purposes and just like generally.
Hexbear.net needs more people who understand how this works lmao
potentially
Yes.
Lotta people in here acting like they've found certainty in this, tho.
I meant business income, whatever. Who cares about pedantic details, lol.
Being pedantic over details that barely matter seems about right with the bschool kids I tutored
The devil is in the details, as my cost accounting prof always said!
You don't need to get get every detail when looking for general trends, as I like to say to my qualitative methods for differential equations class
I’m about to remove Str8AroQueer’s response to this comment, not because it’s rule breaking in and of itself, but because they’re clearly shitstirring and this thread is a long trashfire of Um Aktually corrections that they purposefully dragged out
To anyone reading further, I’m not cleaning up any replies beyond this. Enjoy your rage bait
You’re all good. It was less a response to you and more of a general message for lurkers
I just shot off a few comments, even deleted some, before my after work nap. And I wake up to log on and see like 50 comments in a banned user thread underneath mine lol
Hope your nap was good. OP was basically just dragging out arguments and generally being condescending for no reason
