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except my bf hes the one good male and will force the rest into submission :meow-hug:
men are good, our societal interpretations of masculinity and the expectations that stem from those interpretations are very, very bad.
men need saving just as much as the rest of us do.
Cw
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Yeah except those who sexually assault women, of which there are many beyond counting.
Killing rapists is good and well but it doesn't do anything to stop new men from becoming rapists. It's the same reactive justice that we want to abolish the police for.
This is my standpoint as well, more or less. Though I've since realized this is a vent post (which was not apparent to me until Kristina's follow-up thread and some of the comments that came after, probably bc I am :blob-no-thoughts: ) and is thus an inappropriate place to make this argument.
humans aren't animals, they're conscious beings who choose to be malicious.
really feel no empathy for what youre saying, it borders on victim blaming. most men are trash right now and you expect me to be happy with that for the next hundred years for them to get their shit together? if they ever do? these shitty people are teaching their kids to be shitty as we speak.
cw
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in fact saying this to someone thats been sexually assaulted at least a dozen times is very fucked up. like most the time guys would say they were sorry or whatever and then just do it again. they knew what they were doing
First and most importantly, I'm genuinely sorry for what you've suffered.
CW:
spoiler
I've been through similar experiences, though for the majority I was too young to ever push back enough to get to the insincere apology stage. By the time I hit my teens I had stopped thinking anything of it and it took years for me to really reckon with everything that had happened.
I know nothing I can say will make you feel even the slightest bit better, but I truly do feel for you. I'm sorry if it didn't come across that way.
Please let me know if you'd simply prefer not to continue this conversation.
That said, no, I don't expect you or indeed any decent person to be happy with the current state of affairs. But that's precisely why I think it's worth trying to eliminate the factors that led to where we are now. Even if the work rightfully belongs to the men in question, since their damage makes the prospect of spontaneous self-improvement rather unlikely I'd rather take a share and see it done if it means even one less person will go through what you or I have. I fully acknowledge that this is an unreasonable ask for some people, and I don't hold that against them in the slightest.
Once again, I apologize if I've caused you distress. It was not my intention.
Yup. As are the societal expectations for women. Gender roles under class society are always toxic and adverserial.
as an amab enby who gets clocked as male in and out of lefty spaces, I see these threads gaining traction and bringing on community-wide celebration of anti-maleness, and I think about the welcoming and comforting that the MRA/incel/pol communities would do to me for the same reason it's "logical" to hate me here, and it makes me sad. I understand that some people have had men permanently ruined for them by bad experiences, but threads like this really don't feel like they're encouraging me to address internalized toxic masculinity, they send me the message that there is nothing I can do about toxic masculinity because it's in my genes, so why bother trying.
I finished The Will to Change by Bell Hooks lately. I've never felt more seen by a piece of literature and the welcoming approach the author takes did more to help me deconstruct toxic masculinity and improve as a person than any other reading or conversation I've ever had, and certainly more than hearing that my comrades hate me on sight for immutable characteristics. I wish we as a community could strive to uphold Bell's models of understanding masculinity so more men don't find the community and acceptance that all humans need from patriarchal fash instead of leftists.
Make a post about The Will to Change? I made one about Marx just now, and it's like my 5th relationship-positivity post so far (I even made one to follow up my "dudes suck" post where I dunked on a reddit thread, but the positivity posts always get less traction). I'd like to see more of this stuff and hooks is pretty cool until she gets super Jesus-y.
I actually found that book through this website. Great read, and it is a really nice addition to more orthodox marxist thoughts on alienation through a slightly different lens.
I'm the Hexman
Ski-bi dibby dib yo da dub dub Yo da dub dub Ski-bi dibby dib yo da dub dub Yo da dub dub (I'm the Hexman) Ski-bi dibby dib yo da dub dub Yo da dub dub Ski-bi dibby dib yo da dub dub Yo da dub dub
Ba-da-ba-da-ba-be bop bop bodda bope Bop ba bodda bope Be bop ba bodda bope Bop ba bodda Ba-da-ba-da-ba-be bop ba bodda bope Bop ba bodda bope Be bop ba bodda bope Bop ba bodda bope
I mean yeah 5-10% of guys are probably alright.
But like I got called a dude's 'baby girl' while he was grabbing his dick at the grocery store the other day. I feel the need to drag my bf everywhere, no matter how inconvenient, because he scares lesser men with how buff he is. I feel like I'm constantly being swarmed by toxic masculinity everywhere I go, the tragedy of being kinda cute I guess :meow-tableflip:
I want to say that it's more than 5-10% but your experiences are not exactly inspiring :deeper-sadness:
Thing is I've been on both sides of the coin sorta (pre-transition stuff) and I still have that assessment :joker-troll:
Like I can maybe see an argument for like, 5-20% lmao, but then you get into the territory of 'guys who are passive to shitty things happening around them being OK'
I think I've had random dudes stand up to an intimidating guy once or twice in the probably hundred+ times I've been harassed. Honestly I've been harassed so many times that I can't legitimately put a number on it so honestly just disregard that, no way I can write an accurate starting point
Yeah it's some peace of mind but it's not like I can legally spray a guy for being a creep, whereas guys can legally make me feel unsafe whenever
I’ve always gotten along better with women than men, especially as I started reaching maturity and realized just how much I didn’t fit in and didn’t like so much toxic masculinity nonsense and how I expressed how I felt
This was me as well. I used to be concerned that I was just around women because of hope for sex but 1. It turns out I wasn't and 2. Non-men just gave off so much better and more accepting vibes, for lack of a better word.
My earliest memories where social groups were forming I was always outcast from the boys, and I still don't know exactly why, but either because I didn't give off toxicity or because I wasn't welcome and learned not to be toxic from those communities, I've just always felt much more comfortable outside most male spaces. They really are awful, I've been able to join in only when being on or rooting for the same team, where the sides are predetermined. Otherwise I'm at a loss at how to act and enjoy myself in those spaces.
And now as an adult, yeah, most old male friends I have have gone one of the routes you described and even when given the time of day are difficult to talk down from their terrible preconceived masculine notions.
I think I also get along well with non-men because I otherwise present like a normal man, but I'm not a complete predatory dick and strive to be caring, considerate, and listen an learn from them. I'm fine being a cis-man and hope to be and to demonstrate how one can be that and also not toxically masculine, as society defines it, which is probably appealing to those around me who only witness the norm. Go figure being a Pinko slots into that nicely.
Fucking so true. I'm a millennial so that whole friend zone trope is/was HUGE. I've also learned you can have crushes on friends but you can just not make it their problem and then that's pretty fine. Plus you learn there's a different type of love and affection for friends, I know there's a Greek word for it, and without that being something that is taught can get confused for the basal emotions men are allowed.
yeah there are some triggers for me on whether a guy is gonna be shitty to me or not. ive developed an instinct for it after so much abuse :yea:
like a random dude walking straight at me in a sort of confident way skeeves me out every fuckin time nowadays because they usually stride up and say something incredibly fucking dumb and sexist to me
you sound alright
Hating patriarchy is logical. Hating all men perpetuates patriarchy however.
I know this is a shit post thoughhh
Its funny growing up asigned male at Birth you start to notice at certain comming of age moments the sort of track certain guys just start snow balling into, I think most are redeemable but maybe like 20% presently are viable any moment at any time.
On a reflection I feel a strangeness when I think about my own masculinity, as I cant really see positive traits that aren't destructive to my mental and physical health. only sexism I have experienced was and continues to be at work. Im expected always to physically lift everything heavy or physical work loads, emotional abuse but because I some how have less emotional capacity. I guess I wish that masculinity could have positive associations/ qualitys./ be free of patriarchy. A year ago a trans man who I met at work asked me about gender roll stuff as they wanted to be visually and verbaly more masculine and I found it really hard to give any positive or just healthy aspects to masculine gender rolls. :pain:
Anyhow I think about that a lot when I see stuff like I hate men is logical, I think yeah maybe we should be just mulched into dust.
Using your strength to stand up for women is very positive imo. Unique position that only men can usually do. Like it's just a fact that the majority of men can just intimidate and sexually harass me cause I simply can't take them in a one on one fight anymore. Number of times dudes just laughed or rolled their eyes at harassment and continued with their day after witnessing it happen to me is too damn high. It's why I appreciate my bf. He got in an altercation with some guy once cause he was invading some woman's personal space. I got verbally harassed once and bf got super close to the guy and said 'say it again' and the dude looked like he was gonna piss himself. I felt so safe, relieved, and happy in that moment, whereas usually I expect something bad to happen and all the other guys to look on and be like 'ah shucks boys will be boys'
Cause the whole thing is we as women have a risk to ourselves all the time that men don't feel, so its actually good when men take that risk on themselves to speak up against harassment at least.
The funniest thing about me is that I literally dont have anything that could be positive about stereotypical masculinity. I am not strong, tall, nor smart.
I also don't have any positive stereotypical traits of femininity. I'm ugly as sin, terrible with people, and completely uncreative and non-artistic.
If there is a god, I will strangle him with his own intestines for what he decided to create with me. I will inject sulphuric acid into God's fucking eyes
BigAssBlueBug, I think you're funny and your posts makes me smile. I like having you around on this site. :meow-hug:
Using your strength to stand up for women is very positive imo. Unique position that only men can usually do.
It can be difficult, albeit necessary, to stand up for women and against sexism in men exclusive space. :trump-anguish: wasn't exactly wrong about "locker room talk", althought most men aren't bragging about sexual assault they do get more sexist when women aren't around. Necessary for good allies to not participate in that and call it out, even though that can come with a lot of social pressure and anger in men exclusive spaces.
althought most men aren’t bragging about sexual assault they do get more sexist when women aren’t around
gotta be real with you before i transitioned there were dudes absolutely bragging about sexual assault and pressuring girls into sex around me and i always called them disgusting pigs at the least. got one expelled from school once, but that was the extent that society found OK to punish a guy for giving a girl mental scars. bad thing to see as a young trans girl who had yet to transition
I said most men but there are absolutely like 30-40% of men that would just brag about SA.
Sure, you can at least verbally tell the guy off and still be in a safer position than a woman even if youre not strong, which I did say in the post
I've been thinking about this for about half an hour, trying to form my words correctly.
I've been in groups of people trying to deal with trauma before, and what I discovered is that venting about trauma does not have a steady target. A lot of people get caught in the crossfire, and the more trauma, the more crossfire. I find that the more direct the target, the less people get caught. Hating men may be the most logical thing to do, especially from your life experience, but I don't think it is the most compassionate thing to do. I think the best way to move forward is to aim directly at the patriarchy and fire.
Based on watching leftist men for a while now, seeing posts from other women, and reading a few libcom posts about sexual abuse in leftist spaces: when you aim directly at the patriarchy, many men think "I'm not part of the patriarchy" and turn brain off. Like everyone here loved dunking on Jordan Peterson for hating plus size models for 2 weeks but if we even suggest that guys here might possibly have issues the levels of buttmad go off the charts immediately.
Like yeah, the patriarchy is the problem, obviously, but everyone is the patriarchy. And when these sorts of reactions happen it feels like people are going "yeah, everyone but me."
It costs $0 to ignore the post and let it drop off the end of the TL. Happened with her last vent post that got 16 upvotes and 0 comments. My posts drop off the front page all the time. The algorithm this sites runs on is designed to put the spotlight on frequently commented posts and people don't maintain an awareness of how their behavior affects that.
I only upvote posts I want to get higher and frequently do shitposty comments on things I want to have more visibility but don't have the expertise or will to go in depth on.
lmfao maybe people should learn to read the other comments in the thread then, sorry that im pissed and wanted people to actually vent with and didnt come up with a focus grouped title that would please the men of this site who say shit like 'nuke america' all the time
guess i'll just say 'nuke men' next time this invariably happens to me :xi-plz:
My issue with this sort of thing is that it's all about spectacle. Girls/fembies/etc. on here who vent are looking for others to commiserate with. Men or people who identify with them see the title and then inflate the spectacle instead of allowing it to be a small vent thread that drops off the TL. Similarly, posts about sexism in non-leftists explode in popularity with dunks of "I'm glad I'm not like that."
But when people try to post constructive helpful threads for working through stuff it gets 6-16 replies and 24 upvotes at best. Men want to complain about the patriarchy in other men but working on themselves is not a focus. Hell, I'm still working on myself and my post history shows that I'm trying to share the results of that with others. I can't be everywhere all at once but I feel like I am at least trying to practice what I preach.
I can pass that feedback to the mod team, but I'm not an admin/sitemod (or mod of this comm). I also don't have any negativity towards you
I don't think you're a bad person, Melty. I mean, I guess you wouldn't know cause the one time we interacted I just gave you some advice on a fightstick, lol. I'm fully on board that wrangling users is a pain and a half, been there.
I'm just kind of frustrated with this place on a technical level. It always feels like you're fighting the software in a way I generally don't have to on vanilla. Even just having user-level blocks would be gamechanging. Putting the default view back on subscriptions would help avoid cross-contamination issues and make special interest comms more visible (and whoever put the view-change button behind the cogwheel on mobile, just, ugh). A lot of the aesthetic changes to this place put all the focus on the main TL and make exploring comms a huge pain, so people spend 99% of their energy on the front page of the site rather than clicking the convenient comm links that Lemmy has sitting right in the sidebar, always visible. I think it kind of homogenizes things.
should have been locked
No, I specifically asked for it not to be and honestly got really angry when they did it without asking me my opinion and then following it up with calling me reactionary over something that wasn't reactionary in the slightest
Like yeah, I am distraught, but I'm gonna be distraught for the next couple of days anyways and while I can vent to my bf and hes awesome for it I like to talk to other (anonymous) people with similar experiences
i literally typed numerous nuanced comments after all the men got angry :think-mark:
which is honestly impressive since ive been ptsd flair up'd for like 3 days straight now cause of the grocery store thing
so calling a victim not human or 'lesser than human', cool stuff. really getting a lot of cool vibes from this 'socialist' site today
That's not what I'm trying to say :kitty-cri: . I'm just trying to say that airing out trauma can get people caught in the crossfire.
This is true, but being able to air out trauma in an unfiltered way is still important. Victimized people shouldn't be held back by "not all men" or "not all white dudes" or "not all cishets" concerns for civility, they should be allowed to vent their grievances freely when they need to.
I understand that for men, particularly white men, other intersections like neurodivergence, ability and especially class often get overlooked (not to mention that this often coincides with the erasure of trans men and masc-presenting NBs), which leads to struggling white boys being left alone during the time when they're most needing of help, most exploited, most destitute etc. and that's a legitimate problem that we as a leftist movement have to adress.
But adressing these needs cannot come at the expense of tone policing women.
I could also make valid criticisms of @kristina 's post arguing in a gender essentialist way (and i can already say with 100% certainty that this is not what she intended) - as a trans woman, i am very, very aware that toxic masculinity is not tied to sex or gender, but is imposed on people, beginning with the moment they're assigned male, and that this imposition can be fully reversible, that you can completely recover from society trying to make you a man against your will. Likewise, all men are not born men, they are made men, and their toxic traits, whether merely aggravating and annoying or outright dangerous to their fellow human beings and the planet as a whole are not an immutable fate, but the result of the material conditions and the patriarchal superstructure they grow up under. "Men are inherently, essentially bad" is a TERFoid position that is idealist and intellectually indefensible.
That doesn't change the fact that a much, much, much too large number of men have ended up so bad that they are beyond repair - understanding that we are all products of our environment doesn't excuse destructive behavior, it merely explains it. This also doesn't change the fact that women need great leeway in airing their grievances. This should only be curbed when marginalized groups are caught in the crossfire. It also doesn't change that even though men can be marginalized, they are never marginalized for being men. They may be harmed by being men, but that harm comes from being shoehorned into the violently oppressive role our society has for them. It is damage incurred from being enticed to harm others. Healing it starts with confronting the destructive nature of what it means to be a man in our society, and you cannot fully do that if you retreat to the safety of "not all men".
I normally stay out of struggle sessions, but i had hoped that i could add some useful things to the conversation. I'm glad that worked in at least one case.
Yayyyyy :meow-hug: I try to take the "struggle" out of these sessions as much as possible and actually learn something instead.
well you literally did say it. what do you expect me to do? agree that im not acting 'human'?
i do agree that if you vent trauma to other victims, that can lead to a cascade. once i realized the giant pushback i was getting from a vent post that i figured socialists would largely agree with, I tagged this nsfw as a content warning so that other victims didnt have to interact with this garbage heap of male condescension and concern trolling
I changed it to compassionate, I hope that's a little bit better.
slightly better, but youre still a guy mansplaining what the proper response to patriarchal abuse is :shrug-outta-hecks:
Harsh but true. Victims of SA (which is a lot of women damn) especially have every right to vent their frustrations without being policed. I guess being socialized as men stunts our ability to fully empathize with the struggle and sheer magnitude of justified fear women have of men. SA being so common in media doesn't help, desensitizing one to the actual horrific consequences and trauma that comes from it.
It didn't even click for me till I read the autobiography of a SA victim. The event itself was described in terrible detail but what got me wasn't that. It was the trauma she described immediately after as well as its lingering effects decades after the assault happened that finally led me to comprehend a fraction of the shit women go through.
So I guess men need to listen more and say less on why women are rightfully afraid of them. Edit: and not take it personally.
:this:
My bf is honestly an extremely awesome guy that understands this. Which is why the title is a bit tongue in cheek
On one hand, this kind of rhetoric is alienating to male comrades. On the other, it's kind of true. Anyway, nice struggle session post
