These people say they care about Gaza, but we all know deep down inside they couldn't give less of a fuck.

It's more important virtue signal than to sincerely hold those values, this is the democrat way.

https://lemmy.ml/post/20384005

  • ashaman2007@lemm.ee
    ·
    2 months ago

    https://theintercept.com/2024/09/11/harris-trump-debate-gaza-israel-saudi/ So, what is the right choice then?

      • ashaman2007@lemm.ee
        ·
        2 months ago

        Functionally, doing nothing is also a choice. And in this case it does more harm than good to let MAGA get the backing of the Federal govt. I am familiar with the theory of democracy not being possible under capitalism, and agree. But what does it do for me? I can't snap my fingers and transition from a full on capitalist system to anarcho-socialism in a fucking day. So yeah, I'm gonna participate and try to stop the harm to my country that would result from me not participating.

        • miz [any, any]
          ·
          2 months ago

          I am familiar with the theory of democracy not being possible under capitalism, and agree

          code for "I didn't watch the fucking video because I think I know everything already". fuck you, it's 12 minutes at 1.5x speed, I have complete contempt for your soft western chauvinist ass. every single fucking time a liberal fails to watch the video and then gives a predictable "do nothing" critique contradicted by the video. voting is doing nothing. how about next time someone links something you don't reply if you're not willing to engage with the material? eat shit

          • ashaman2007@lemm.ee
            ·
            2 months ago

            OK, I watched the video. You asked me to humble myself and engage with your point of view. I did. Hopefully you can do the same with mine.

            1. I don't expect reforms of liberal democracy will bring us toward a democratic ideal. They are temporary harm reduction.
            2. yes I agree the US is a class dictatorship. How does one start to break that in the short term? Labor organization. Which I am fully in support of. Long term? I don't pretend to know, but at least if we are organized as a labor force maybe we can start to see a path through.
            3. I'm not unaware that my vote is not always effective depending on which policies the capital holding class supports. However in my over a decade of voting I have also seen GOOD regulations pass despite corporate interests and capital investment in lobbying. So no, voting is not PURELY to pacify my guilt at being a citizen of the evil empire. I vote for what I believe in and if it reduces harm that's great. If not, that's OK, voting is not preventing anybody from doing more to oppose shit policies.
            4. One oversimplification in this video is that it implies any and all leaders in a liberal democracy are always going to do the same level of violence when repressing civil disobedience. You can look at the civil rights movement to see how there were key differences in how the movement was able to develop in the south (where segregation was law) and in the north, where it was not. https://academic-oup-com.proxy.library.nyu.edu/book/45643/chapter/396344580 (link to full text of this chapter: https://file.io/xsfTsCUAIfFE) The point is, that if I have a choice between Harris and Trump, I'm going to pick the one least likely to call in the National Guard to the protest...and if I don't show up to vote, I didn't even try to do that. https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-barr-used-loophole-deploy-national-guard-u-s-cities-ncna1236034
            5. As was suggested elsewhere in this thread, apparently the only way to create a just society is through "revolution". Of course, nobody cares to define what that looks like. Why? Because it is an absolutely enormous task, and one that you could (probably rightfully) debate for years in order to try to do it "the right way" and avoid an utter disaster (a shooting civil war). Part of the issue is that currently, millions are dependent on the systems in our liberal democracy. From healthcare to food, there is a massive void that must be filled before just the masses can just say "I don't recognize this govt as legitimate". Time and time again I hear anarchists online repeat "we just need a revolution", and apparently this understanding makes them better than me despite the complete and total lack of any coherent path to the endgame besides "fuck some shit up". Given the amount of failed revolutions strewn throughout history (and the death and destruction they left in their wake), I would suggest that people stop throwing out that word as if it means something specific.
            • miz [any, any]
              ·
              2 months ago

              Hopefully you can do the same with mine.

              literally every time I look at a bourgeois newspaper or mass media broadcast where they spout the exact same class-obfuscatory excuses for the orphan-grinding machine. the exact same arguments liberals have been making (and history has continually proven wrong) since the 19th century

              • ashaman2007@lemm.ee
                ·
                2 months ago

                OK cool now you are arguing in bad faith. Nothing in my response was an attempt to hide the class conflict inherent in liberal democracy.

        • Sodium_nitride@lemmygrad.ml
          ·
          2 months ago

          I want you to internalise something.

          Your country is already Fascist (yes, capital F fascist) and was like that from day 1.

        • miz [any, any]
          ·
          2 months ago

          doing nothing

          nobody said that, which makes it clear that the function of voting is to make you feel better about your complicity

        • miz [any, any]
          ·
          2 months ago

          stop the harm to my country

          lol. lmao

    • TheLepidopterists [he/him]
      ·
      2 months ago

      Well first take every single dollar that you were going to give to the Democrats, who are genocidal fascists remember, and give that to their victims instead. Next take every single second that you were going to spend trying to convince people to vote for genocidal war, criminal Kamala Harris, and use that time to convince people that genocide is an unacceptable line to cross.

      Next pray for the success of Hamas, the rest of the Palestinian resistance, Iran, Hezbollah and Ansarallah in their fight against genocide.

      Finally, consider the question of what options were open to a morally upstanding citizen in Nazi Germany during the Holocaust. Those are your morally upstanding options.

      If that all sounds bleak, I'm sorry it is bleak, the government that you currently support is committing genocide.

      • ashaman2007@lemm.ee
        ·
        2 months ago

        OK, not voting and trying to further the already existing movement to divest from Israel. In which case Donald Trump and the Republican party down-ballot wins (historically, lower turnout means Republican victory), and now you have a genocide occurring in Palestine AND America when Trump haphazardly tries to deport hundreds of thousands of Latin American immigrants en masse. I don't think people understand that Donald Trump actually does have a record of doing what he promises... he did actually build the wall. Is it shit? Yeah, but he built it. Did he actually install people in federal agencies who worked to make them ineffective? Absolutely. MAGA with the backing of the US govt is terrifying; without that, much less so. Keeping MAGA away from power and confined to their corners of the internet is important. That is literally the ONLY reason why I feel the need to participate in this fucked up system.

        • Cowbee [he/him, they/them]
          ·
          2 months ago

          OK, not voting and trying to further the already existing movement to divest from Israel. In which case Donald Trump and the Republican party down-ballot wins (historically, lower turnout means Republican victory), and now you have a genocide occurring in Palestine AND America when Trump haphazardly tries to deport hundreds of thousands of Latin American immigrants en masse

          Harris is running on a platform of increased border protections. She is to the right of Trump in 2016.

          Keeping MAGA away from power and confined to their corners of the internet is important. That is literally the ONLY reason why I feel the need to participate in this fucked up system.

          The Dems are moving rightward, the danger is already here.

        • Belly_Beanis [he/him]
          ·
          2 months ago

          I'm going to slap the shit out of you and when you complain, I'll point out how a republican would have shot you, then slap you again.