Another L for Roderic Day. Why bother going after Hakim when there’s a genocide going on?

Walk_On [he/him] · 1 year ago

Another L for Roderic Day. Why bother going after Hakim when there’s a genocide going on?

PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml · edit-2 1 year ago

Maybe it will die off completely in the future, but that hasn’t happened in any AES country to date and that’s really important to note.

There was significant decrease in religiousness in all socialist countries and its a steady trend as long as state remain focused on proper materialist education.

Really, looking at all the current and former AES, i would say that getting rid of religion is easier than getting rid of petty bourgeois sentiment (something that Lenin said it would be the hardest thing to do, and which was also not successful but with some progress in AES).

JamesConeZone [they/them] · edit-2 1 year ago

Sorry, I don't really have the capacity to write the long response that this deserves but I can add few things that complicate that overall picture.

Reported religiousness plummets when religion is outlawed but skyrockets when its re-legalized or tolerated again (e.g., China, USSR). This isn't because a lot of people suddenly convert -- proselytizing is almost always still illegal -- but rather they feel safe enough to self-report and identify as religion followers on official and unofficial surveys. Religiosity has been resilient in most AES countries. See China and Cuba's remarkably steady Christian population and folk religion adherents or Buddhism in Vietnam.
There are many reasons people claim religions including national heritages, family history, spiritual connections to some practice, or genuine superstition. Education can address the latter but struggles with the former. As I recommended below, I'd recommend reading China's statement on this from 1982.

Agreed on the petty bourgeois sentiment. Religion overlaps with that in huge amounts, of course, so if religion is to be allowed in AES countries, it needs regulation and proper education that both re-educates indigenous populations especially those that were converted from, say, American evangelicals and makes sure cults like Shen Yun don't pop up -- this obviously happens outside of religion too but it's particularly insidious within it.

PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml · edit-2 1 year ago

You're basically right, but note even in the formerly AES countries, despite plunging into deep crisis, the number of atheists remain at much higher levels than it was before socialism - even in country like Poland. It's most visible in Czechia iirc. So it does work. Few more generations (it was like not even 2 basically) and much more would disappear, though probably not entirely (see Japanese christianity emerging after Meiji restoration, though it emerged 95% reduced and heavily influenced with buddhism).

I think there isn't much problem with disorganised and decentralised religions, at least as the party remains strictly atheist, but something like the catholic church is immense danger, the worse that every move against them, even for completely nonrelated reasons (again look at Poland where some priests were arrested for spying and other antisocialist activities) will be always portrayed as attack on religion, so the socialist country would necessarily have aim to remove their political power, most likely by expropriation of their property - something that for example again Poland failed to do (PRL even gave them some of postgerman land!) which caused unending trouble.

There are many reasons people claim religions including national heritages, family history, spiritual connections to some practice, or genuine superstition. Education can address the latter but struggles with the former.

All those aren't as immutable as you probably see it, there are historical examples of all this changing more or less rapidly. I think it's again that socialism simply did not had enough time and had too much outside opposition to properly adress that.

Lenin once wrote interesting article "On the significance of militant materialism"

JamesConeZone [they/them] · 1 year ago

Czechia seems to be an outlier according to the data I've seen (link), but granted that Estonia also has a near majority of atheist. But yeah, observance of actual religions rites are very sparse. But I really care more about how people identify as that is a powerful form if self-identification, especially post-revolution.

Re: Catholcism, I agree 100%. In that document I referenced above, the Chinese government talks about the danger of imperial influences in religions:

Buddhism, Islam, Catholicism, and Protestantism, which occupy a very important place among our national religions, are at the same time ranked among the major world religions, and all exercise extensive influence in their societies... At the present time, contacts with international religious groups are increasing, along with the expansion of our country's other international contacts, a situation which has important significance for extending our country's political influence. But at the same time there are reactionary religious groups abroad, especially the imperialistic ones such as the Vatican and Protestant Foreign-mission societies, who strive to use all possible occasions to carry on their efforts at infiltration "to return to the China mainland." Our policy is to actively develop friendly international religious contacts, but also to firmly resist infiltration by hostile foreign religious forces.

We must be vigilant and pay close attention to hostile religious forces from abroad who set up underground churches and other illegal organizations. We must act resolutely to attack those organizations that carry out destructive espionage under the guise of religion. Of course, in doing so, we must not act rashly, but rather investigate thoroughly, have irrefutable evidence at hand, choose the right moment, and execute the case in accordance with lawful procedures.

The entire document is worth reading, but this in particular was pertinent to avoiding reactionaries within religions. It still asserts that Marxism and religions are contradictory but that religion isn't going anywhere even though it's been illegal for over a a generation.

But as I mentioned to the other poster, we're basically in agreement. I just don't think that religiosity will ever just fall away like Marx & Engel's optimism, but who knows. I'd be glad to be wrong, especially if China's model of the long game in followed.

Collatz_problem [comrade/them] · 1 year ago

Most people who identify as Christians in the former Soviet Union visit the church about 1-2 times a year at most. In more developed Muslim areas situation is the same. Actual religious faith survived only in underdeveloped rural communities, and even there it is slowly bleeding support.

JamesConeZone [they/them] · 1 year ago

Yeah, Pew's Report calls that “believing and belonging, without behaving” which I thought was a funny way to put it.

While Pew Research Center’s survey shows that majorities of adults across the region believe in God and identify with Orthodox Christianity, conventional measures of Christian religious behavior – such as levels of daily prayer and weekly worship attendance – are relatively low.