The idea that the Palestinian people have only been able to persist because of their religion is ridiculous to me. They are resisting because colonialism, apartheid and genocide are very bad things to which nobody would want to be subjected, not because of Islam. If Palestinians were atheists, is he suggesting that they wouldn't have the strength or the will to resist? Would their lack of a belief in the supernatural turn them into doormats for Isn'treal?

I like Hakim's content, but his position on religion is quite frustrating. He is a Muslim first and a Marxist second. Also, Joram van Klaveren is still a right-winger.

  • StalinForTime [comrade/them]
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    edit-2
    9 months ago

    Yes comrade atheism is what I am referring to here. And Marxism was born in part out of a critique of religion, as a political extension of scientific critique of religion, as Marxism is the Proletarian stage of Scientific Revolution. The concepts of socially real abstractions such as commodity and money fetishism has intellectual roots in the Marxist critique of religious fetishization. There are religious communists, and contrary to what might be expected I'm actually very sympathetic to the pursuit of mystical and spiritual experience as a key component of a flourishing life. I sympathize deeply with this motivation behind religious belief, though desire to experience the numinous is not limited to non-atheists. Like honestly if I was pushed to it in some ways my metaphysical beliefs in the light of modern science in conjunction with my interpretations of dialectical materialism almost lead to a form of pantheism, though I'm considering that to be atheistic here. Part of my sympathy is because for 16 years of my life I was in a cycle of devout religiosity and alienation. So I understand the appeal intimately and think that that has a place in a socialist and communist society, though in a form very different from that which organized religion currently takes.

    There are several places in the Quran and the Hadith were the punishments in hell and the idea that it will be eternal are implied or described. Please see my other response to your comment for some examples. It is a completely ad hoc, idealist method to ignore the Hadith/Sunnah, which is almost as important in the discussions over Islamic social policy and legislation, as the Quran, as the latter leaves alot of question unanswered, for the materialist reason that it is an imperfect religious text, despite it still being a really marvelous text in many ways. The Quran itself is a fascinating text, and I recommend that everyone read it. There are passages of immense beauty, sublimity and philosophical depth, as well as poetic effect, but though the question of whether or not I think it intellectually impressive overall is a secondary concern, I do also think that, no matter how progressive Islam as a social force might have been during it's rise to prominence, relative to the Byzantines or Arab paganism, it is not any real basis as an ideology for progressive, let alone communist politics in the current era, so we have to make that clear if asked, as we would for any other organized religion as they currently materially exist, or could feasibly so exist in the relevant political futures open to us. Of course, as Rania correctly points out (while bizarrely assuming that I am suggesting the opposite), this in no way implies that discussions with religious believers cannot be open, sympathetic and sensitive, and doesnt change that it is of course reactionary to simply go around telling people they are incorrect or attacking them personally for their religious beliefs. The point is that Marxists have to understand, realistically, the nature of organized religion as it currently exists. But that, again, is not the same thing as making clear that the communist ideological position that has to be staked out cannot be on a religious basis, and that the legitimacy of religious justifications in politics has to be contested, and that we have to make clear that that politics based on organized religion is fundamentally limited in terms of the progressive potential which it opens up. In societies where religion is very powerful, it is a key obstacle to Socialism and Communist radicalization. Rania seems to be suggesting that Communists should simply hide their views and ignore reactionary aspects of religion, which is not communist in the slightest.

    Libya is a weird case because Gaddafi's relationship to Islam was very strange, and he was, as always, pretty incoherently unorthodox when you look as his expressions on it detail. Libya never really engaged in any real thoroughgoing Islamization of its political structures. Certainly not in any way comparable to, say, Iran or Saudi Arabia. It was certainly the society in the Middle East and North Africa with the most notable economic success. No disagreement there.