I am too. We should be criticizing politicians for the full context of what they said. The call for an end to the embargo at the end makes this less bad, but the regime change stuff at the beginning is horrible and why I can’t give critical support in this instance.
I'm honestly at a loss for how people read a statement that includes "end the embargo, it's cruelty for cruelty's sake" and interpret that as supportive of regime change. If you're directly calling for an end to the most destructive U.S. policy towards Cuba, it's pretty clear you don't support Bay of Pigs Episode II.
I get what you’re saying and I think we’re just focused on different parts of the statement.
The first half is what I’ve got an issue with since it’s repeating imperialist propaganda about Cuba, which feeds into the effort to manufacture consent for regime change. The second half calling for the end of the embargo is fine.
I think AOC is generally a positive for the left in the imperial core since she brings people into the pipeline, but it’s frustrating to see leftist figures furthering imperialism.
I agree that calling Cuba undemocratic is bad. Whatever her intentions, you're right, it fits in with the imperial narrative towards Cuba.
But what do people think mainstream politics entails? And I'm not talking about electoral politics, I'm talking about any sort of politics mainstream enough to appeal to a major part of the population. Do people really think a politician would get anything done if they said "Cuba is more democratic than the United States, and not only should we end the embargo tonight, but we should pay them reparations for the last century of colonialism?" Look at how Bernie got roasted for extremely tepid praise of Cuba. Look at all the people to the left of the Democratic Party who haven't come around to supporting AES states. What value is there to having perfect leftist opinions if you never get the power to do anything?
We not going to get anywhere if we yell "social fascist!" at people who are further left than 99% of U.S. politicians. It is frustrating, but there's no easy path here.
I see what you’re saying. I don’t expect aggressive support of AES from a moderate socialist in the imperial core, but I do expect leftist politicians to be selective about commenting on topics they can’t (currently) win on or play politics and focus on the positives.
Eg A message of support for the cuban people in need of medical supplies and then pivoting to the embargo.
Reiterating the “cuba evil” propaganda is counterproductive to the political goals I assume AOC is (hopefully) working towards. It’s one more moment of anti-communist propaganda from someone who is often on our side. It shows a lack of solidarity and that’s worrying.
If I was talking with a lib or chud I’d be more coded in my language, but I’m talking shit with you and other comrades. Important for us to have a space to do that.
I can imagine a better statement, too, but she needs to reach an audience much broader than a lefty forum full of DPRK emojis. We want to build a mass movement, right? Building a mass movement involves saying things that don't get you written off as too radical to take seriously.
This is a great site, but we can't lose touch with the real world. We're judging politicians by the standards of this place, which are incompatible with the type of rhetoric you have to use if you're a politician trying to reach mass numbers of people. You mention the importance of coded language when talking to libs or chuds -- that's what politicians have to do.
Yeah, I think we’re in agreement here. If I’m being charitable, I think AOC severely overshot on any coded language she was using. If I’m being more militant, I chalk it up to imperial core brainworms. Social chauvinism is a real thing and takes effort to work through.
Either way, fingers crossed that she becomes more anti-imperialist. Calling for an end to the embargo is a good start, it’s unfortunate it was mixed in with condemnation of the Cuban people and their revolution.
I am too. We should be criticizing politicians for the full context of what they said. The call for an end to the embargo at the end makes this less bad, but the regime change stuff at the beginning is horrible and why I can’t give critical support in this instance.
I'm honestly at a loss for how people read a statement that includes "end the embargo, it's cruelty for cruelty's sake" and interpret that as supportive of regime change. If you're directly calling for an end to the most destructive U.S. policy towards Cuba, it's pretty clear you don't support Bay of Pigs Episode II.
I get what you’re saying and I think we’re just focused on different parts of the statement.
The first half is what I’ve got an issue with since it’s repeating imperialist propaganda about Cuba, which feeds into the effort to manufacture consent for regime change. The second half calling for the end of the embargo is fine.
I think AOC is generally a positive for the left in the imperial core since she brings people into the pipeline, but it’s frustrating to see leftist figures furthering imperialism.
I agree that calling Cuba undemocratic is bad. Whatever her intentions, you're right, it fits in with the imperial narrative towards Cuba.
But what do people think mainstream politics entails? And I'm not talking about electoral politics, I'm talking about any sort of politics mainstream enough to appeal to a major part of the population. Do people really think a politician would get anything done if they said "Cuba is more democratic than the United States, and not only should we end the embargo tonight, but we should pay them reparations for the last century of colonialism?" Look at how Bernie got roasted for extremely tepid praise of Cuba. Look at all the people to the left of the Democratic Party who haven't come around to supporting AES states. What value is there to having perfect leftist opinions if you never get the power to do anything?
We not going to get anywhere if we yell "social fascist!" at people who are further left than 99% of U.S. politicians. It is frustrating, but there's no easy path here.
I see what you’re saying. I don’t expect aggressive support of AES from a moderate socialist in the imperial core, but I do expect leftist politicians to be selective about commenting on topics they can’t (currently) win on or play politics and focus on the positives.
Eg A message of support for the cuban people in need of medical supplies and then pivoting to the embargo.
Reiterating the “cuba evil” propaganda is counterproductive to the political goals I assume AOC is (hopefully) working towards. It’s one more moment of anti-communist propaganda from someone who is often on our side. It shows a lack of solidarity and that’s worrying.
If I was talking with a lib or chud I’d be more coded in my language, but I’m talking shit with you and other comrades. Important for us to have a space to do that.
I can imagine a better statement, too, but she needs to reach an audience much broader than a lefty forum full of DPRK emojis. We want to build a mass movement, right? Building a mass movement involves saying things that don't get you written off as too radical to take seriously.
This is a great site, but we can't lose touch with the real world. We're judging politicians by the standards of this place, which are incompatible with the type of rhetoric you have to use if you're a politician trying to reach mass numbers of people. You mention the importance of coded language when talking to libs or chuds -- that's what politicians have to do.
Yeah, I think we’re in agreement here. If I’m being charitable, I think AOC severely overshot on any coded language she was using. If I’m being more militant, I chalk it up to imperial core brainworms. Social chauvinism is a real thing and takes effort to work through.
Either way, fingers crossed that she becomes more anti-imperialist. Calling for an end to the embargo is a good start, it’s unfortunate it was mixed in with condemnation of the Cuban people and their revolution.
Yeah, I think this is a good read on everything.
:fidel-salute:
Good talk comrade.
:fidel-salute-big: