Sanders's most mentioned countries were Denmark and Sweden. The only candidates you ever hear namedropping Switzerland have R's next to their names, usually the more Ayn Rand-obsessed people like the Pauls.
Funny enough, neither of those countries is socialist. Scandinavia in general is not what Americans think it is. They have such a simplistic view. Here's the reality:
Norway: I fought the Germans for 62 days, then our leader's name entered the English language as a synonym for 'collaborator'.
Denmark: I fought the Germans For 5 hours, then became a model Nazi province.
Finland: I invaded and annexed Soviet territory shoulder to shoulder with the Nazis, then created my own concentration camps in which I imprisoned civilians that I ethnically cleansed.
Sweden: I supplied the Germans with iron, without which their war effort would have ground to a halt.
then our leader’s name entered the English language as a synonym for ‘collaborator
This would only be some sort of argument if Quisling was already in power when the nazis invaded, which he wasn't. The nazis installed him as "our leader", not the norwegian people.
You're also conveniently leaving out the resistance movements who most definitely did not lay down arms after 62 days. But I suppose that they and all the people who supported them were all "collaborators" as well, including the communists.
Why's it so hard to condemn Nazi collaborators? I had no idea so many users were so defensive about their history. I would think that condemning them would be second nature, but no. You bring up American slavery all the time; how is this any different?
You’re also conveniently leaving out the resistance movements
Our resistance movement was called the Union Army and we had a civil war in which hundreds of thousands of us died to put an end to slavery. How's that compare?
Your "resistance" movement outcompeted the total industrial production of the south by almost an order of magnitude. The slavers never had a chance, as long as the North fought.
Norway put up a pretty decent fight, all things considered, held out and even advanced until the Brits abandoned them leaving them without air support or supply. The commander of their remaining forces committed suicide as soon as he was out from the Nazi's thumb.
Their government managed to escape and refused to surrender. And their resistance (40,000 strong) famously crippled the Nazi Nuclear Progam and forced a 300,000 strong occupation army to stay in place, crippling the Nazi's in the later stages of the war.
The entire population, save 15000 SS Chuds, maintained a consistent program of Civil Disobedience.
Yeah, Quisling was a Nazi shit, and he and his entire government died Nazi shits up against the wall. Lesser Collaborators were ostracised, literally. Many starved to death.
Meanwhile the USA was importing rocket scientists and packing NATO with Nazi goons.
No, I am criticizing them for being Nazi collaborators. I'm more than a little shocked at the angry denial of complicity in Nazi war crimes in this thread. Add to it words that could have been written by Trump, and I think I've had enough internet for the day. I'm gonna go outside and walk in the park.
I'm not European, and our crimes are...about equal to the USA, really. Yay settler colonialism.
62 whole days! Hey, don’t you ridicule the Poles for folding faster than Superman on laundry day? They held out for 40 days.
Poles underperformed in the initial invasion, it's true, they also had an army of 1 million to Norway's 50,000.
That program never had a chance. There was zero possibility of them ever actually making a bomb.
They didn't have the funding, but until 1942 they were pretty close to where the US was in technical capability.
How many Americans joined the SS? You see how easy this is?
At least several dozen, probably several hundred. When did the Yanks join the war again? Oh yeah, after the Nazi's declared war on you. It is easy isn't it?
Roosevelt was doing everything he could to get a war started. There was an undeclared war in the Atlantic. The American people had fled Europe, and were deeply suspicious of getting involved in the old country's problems. What more did you want him to do? He cut Japan off from its oil supplies and boxed them in to declaring war.
At least several dozen, probably several hundred.
Five. As opposed to the Scandinavians who happily volunteered to fill up entire SS divisions. SS Division Wiking, SS Division Nordland, you get the idea.
if Roosevelt gets compliments for the quasi-war in the Atlantic and giving material, then Norway and Denmark at least deserve credit for openly fighting, even if only for a while. If they only could last one day fighting back and did so, that would be as worthy of praise as if they lasted 100. The point is they did oppose the Nazis, and at that moment moreso than america
I'm no fan of the Second Polish Republic (grumble Warsaw grumble should have won), but The Charge at Krojanty (against a motorised infantry division with armoured cars) was a) successful and b) as glorious as war gets.
bad logic. yugoslavia was invaded by the nazis, does that make them fascist? you could just say that they're actually social democracies instead of using this shit. a lot has changed in central europe the last almost century
motherfucker where in my post did I defend nazi collaborators? A loooooot has changed in the last 75+ years in europe. Hell, Germans went from well, nazis, to metrosexual gay guys with skinny glasses who go to the discoteque to listen to der funkybeats when off work. using that scandinavia used to be part of the nazi empire as your go to example of them either a) not being socialist countries, or b) not being like the image Americans have of scandinavia, is both weird and does nothing to prove or disprove your thesis, when you could just say they still rely on capitalist resource extraction from global poor nations or something.
using that scandinavia used to be part of the nazi empire
No, no, no. I said they were Nazi collaborators. I don't get why this simple concept is getting such tremendous pushback. The fact that it's in the past has nothing to do with it. America doesn't get a break from slavery because it was in the past. Therefore the same applies to Scandinavia.
Oh, you don't like your crimes being brought up? Hmm, what a fascinating concept.
And just so you know, the idea that Germans will happily go back to Nazism is behind the vehement suppression of the far right in Germany. AfD is frozen out of the government, and for good reason. Germans are just champing at the bit to go back to Nazism. If you don't believe me, just ask one of them. Heck, Trump withdrawing US troops was seen as a threatening gesture, one likely to release the Germans from under the American thumb to become a threat to all Europe once again.
A country's allegiance 75 years ago aren't a very good indicator of whether or not they're socialist today, especially since half of them lost to the Nazis. Talk about social imperialism and capitalism instead of some shit which most people today won't care about
Wait nvm you're just accusing anyone and everyone on this site of defending Nazis lol
Get over yourself. Nazis and Nazi sympathizers don’t deserve compassion. If you want compassion from the world learn how to put it into the world. If you can’t, you can’t expect it.
literally nobody alive from the time of US slavery is around anymore lmao, you gonna get mad at what the Romans did to Carthage next?
You see how that doesn't work? America doesn't get to dodge its responsibility for slavery, and Scandinavia doesn't get to dodge its responsibility for collaboration with the Nazis.
And we don't mean soup nazis. Not spelling nazis. Not neo-nazis. We mean actual Nazis. The real deal, Scandinavians were no bullshit, assist the war machine to murder Jews and communists, collaborators.
Scandinavian nazis where Nazis, same as American Nazis where nazis, and Yugoslav nazis where nazis. Scandinavians are included among those Jews and communists.
I don't disagree necessarily, but don't diss Norway and Denmark's resistances. Norway put up one hell of a fight against the Kriegsmarine despite being outmatched. I don't have the time and its been too long to summarize from Craig Symonds' work but here is a surprisingly good Imgur post on the fighting put up in Narvik even before the British arrived.
https://imgur.com/gallery/VyJMU1x
As this was happening the Wilhelm Heidkamp had trained her torpedo tubes on the Eidsvold; when Gerlach left the ship he fired a red flare, a pre-agreed signal with the flotilla that the Norwegians were going to fight. Eidsvold immediately fired up her engines and with surprising speed rushed towards the Wilhelm Heidkamp and readied the port battery of 5.9-inch guns to fire. Startled and fearing being rammed, especially with 200 extra hands onboard, the destroyer unleashed four torpedos at point-blank range. Two of them went straight through the side of the old ship and hit the magazine, blowing the Eidsvold in half before she could even fire her guns. By 04:37 it had sunk, taking 175 of the 183-man crew with it, including Willoch.
Sanders's most mentioned countries were Denmark and Sweden. The only candidates you ever hear namedropping Switzerland have R's next to their names, usually the more Ayn Rand-obsessed people like the Pauls.
Funny enough, neither of those countries is socialist. Scandinavia in general is not what Americans think it is. They have such a simplistic view. Here's the reality:
Norway: I fought the Germans for 62 days, then our leader's name entered the English language as a synonym for 'collaborator'.
Denmark: I fought the Germans For 5 hours, then became a model Nazi province.
Finland: I invaded and annexed Soviet territory shoulder to shoulder with the Nazis, then created my own concentration camps in which I imprisoned civilians that I ethnically cleansed.
Sweden: I supplied the Germans with iron, without which their war effort would have ground to a halt.
All of us supplied volunteers for the SS.
This would only be some sort of argument if Quisling was already in power when the nazis invaded, which he wasn't. The nazis installed him as "our leader", not the norwegian people.
You're also conveniently leaving out the resistance movements who most definitely did not lay down arms after 62 days. But I suppose that they and all the people who supported them were all "collaborators" as well, including the communists.
Why's it so hard to condemn Nazi collaborators? I had no idea so many users were so defensive about their history. I would think that condemning them would be second nature, but no. You bring up American slavery all the time; how is this any different?
Our resistance movement was called the Union Army and we had a civil war in which hundreds of thousands of us died to put an end to slavery. How's that compare?
Your "resistance" movement outcompeted the total industrial production of the south by almost an order of magnitude. The slavers never had a chance, as long as the North fought.
Norway put up a pretty decent fight, all things considered, held out and even advanced until the Brits abandoned them leaving them without air support or supply. The commander of their remaining forces committed suicide as soon as he was out from the Nazi's thumb.
Their government managed to escape and refused to surrender. And their resistance (40,000 strong) famously crippled the Nazi Nuclear Progam and forced a 300,000 strong occupation army to stay in place, crippling the Nazi's in the later stages of the war.
The entire population, save 15000 SS Chuds, maintained a consistent program of Civil Disobedience.
Yeah, Quisling was a Nazi shit, and he and his entire government died Nazi shits up against the wall. Lesser Collaborators were ostracised, literally. Many starved to death.
Meanwhile the USA was importing rocket scientists and packing NATO with Nazi goons.
See what I mean? Endless contempt for Americans, while excusing your own, far worse crimes. You people have a real problem with being defensive.
62 whole days! Hey, don't you ridicule the Poles for folding faster than Superman on laundry day? They held out for 40 days.
That program never had a chance. There was zero possibility of them ever actually making a bomb.
How many Americans joined the SS? You see how easy this is?
And I love the anti-NATO sentiment. Trump could have written that himself.
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No, I am criticizing them for being Nazi collaborators. I'm more than a little shocked at the angry denial of complicity in Nazi war crimes in this thread. Add to it words that could have been written by Trump, and I think I've had enough internet for the day. I'm gonna go outside and walk in the park.
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I'm not European, and our crimes are...about equal to the USA, really. Yay settler colonialism.
Poles underperformed in the initial invasion, it's true, they also had an army of 1 million to Norway's 50,000.
They didn't have the funding, but until 1942 they were pretty close to where the US was in technical capability.
At least several dozen, probably several hundred. When did the Yanks join the war again? Oh yeah, after the Nazi's declared war on you. It is easy isn't it?
What is this a pro-NATO sub now?
Roosevelt was doing everything he could to get a war started. There was an undeclared war in the Atlantic. The American people had fled Europe, and were deeply suspicious of getting involved in the old country's problems. What more did you want him to do? He cut Japan off from its oil supplies and boxed them in to declaring war.
Five. As opposed to the Scandinavians who happily volunteered to fill up entire SS divisions. SS Division Wiking, SS Division Nordland, you get the idea.
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if Roosevelt gets compliments for the quasi-war in the Atlantic and giving material, then Norway and Denmark at least deserve credit for openly fighting, even if only for a while. If they only could last one day fighting back and did so, that would be as worthy of praise as if they lasted 100. The point is they did oppose the Nazis, and at that moment moreso than america
Do you... support NATO?
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Poland is a laughingstock of Europe because of that. They charged German tanks with cavalry. That's how the story goes.
I'm no fan of the Second Polish Republic (grumble Warsaw grumble should have won), but The Charge at Krojanty (against a motorised infantry division with armoured cars) was a) successful and b) as glorious as war gets.
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Europeans. Duh.
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bad logic. yugoslavia was invaded by the nazis, does that make them fascist? you could just say that they're actually social democracies instead of using this shit. a lot has changed in central europe the last almost century
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motherfucker where in my post did I defend nazi collaborators? A loooooot has changed in the last 75+ years in europe. Hell, Germans went from well, nazis, to metrosexual gay guys with skinny glasses who go to the discoteque to listen to der funkybeats when off work. using that scandinavia used to be part of the nazi empire as your go to example of them either a) not being socialist countries, or b) not being like the image Americans have of scandinavia, is both weird and does nothing to prove or disprove your thesis, when you could just say they still rely on capitalist resource extraction from global poor nations or something.
No, no, no. I said they were Nazi collaborators. I don't get why this simple concept is getting such tremendous pushback. The fact that it's in the past has nothing to do with it. America doesn't get a break from slavery because it was in the past. Therefore the same applies to Scandinavia.
Oh, you don't like your crimes being brought up? Hmm, what a fascinating concept.
And just so you know, the idea that Germans will happily go back to Nazism is behind the vehement suppression of the far right in Germany. AfD is frozen out of the government, and for good reason. Germans are just champing at the bit to go back to Nazism. If you don't believe me, just ask one of them. Heck, Trump withdrawing US troops was seen as a threatening gesture, one likely to release the Germans from under the American thumb to become a threat to all Europe once again.
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Who is "they"?
A country's allegiance 75 years ago aren't a very good indicator of whether or not they're socialist today, especially since half of them lost to the Nazis. Talk about social imperialism and capitalism instead of some shit which most people today won't care about
Wait nvm you're just accusing anyone and everyone on this site of defending Nazis lol
that was 75 years ago who gives a shit lol
I can think of 6 million reasons.
Instead of focusing on the threats of the 20th century try looking forward to the problems we will encounter soon
Like how a ton of Norway's wealth comes fossil fuels polluting the earth.
Nice distraction!
Get over yourself. Nazis and Nazi sympathizers don’t deserve compassion. If you want compassion from the world learn how to put it into the world. If you can’t, you can’t expect it.
literally nobody alive from that time is around anymore lmao, you gonna get mad at what the Romans did to Carthage next?
literally nobody alive from the time of US slavery is around anymore lmao, you gonna get mad at what the Romans did to Carthage next?
You see how that doesn't work? America doesn't get to dodge its responsibility for slavery, and Scandinavia doesn't get to dodge its responsibility for collaboration with the Nazis.
And we don't mean soup nazis. Not spelling nazis. Not neo-nazis. We mean actual Nazis. The real deal, Scandinavians were no bullshit, assist the war machine to murder Jews and communists, collaborators.
Scandinavian nazis where Nazis, same as American Nazis where nazis, and Yugoslav nazis where nazis. Scandinavians are included among those Jews and communists.
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I thought people here just didn't like tomatoes
one generation
Please try harder :PIGPOOPBALLS:
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I don't disagree necessarily, but don't diss Norway and Denmark's resistances. Norway put up one hell of a fight against the Kriegsmarine despite being outmatched. I don't have the time and its been too long to summarize from Craig Symonds' work but here is a surprisingly good Imgur post on the fighting put up in Narvik even before the British arrived.
https://imgur.com/gallery/VyJMU1x
Gotta respect that