You want people to actually slow down? Redesign the road.
I've posed this question elsewhere in this thread and: what until then? Like what do you do until a good, what, 50 - 90% of road depending on criteria, is redesigned?
The process and length of time it takes for either option are practically the same. It's irrelevant. Not to mention a traffic island costs like £3k while a camera costs £85k (guess why they pick the camera despite the price).
Having been to court twice for online related stuff I will absolutely couch this shit.
I do not see how that question is doing anything but attempting some sort of gotcha or accusation that these people deserve to be fucked over instead of have real designs that don't result in their lives being made harder. It seems like spite to me.
Having been to court twice for online related stuff I will absolutely couch this shit.
Fair, I meant it more on "don't do it on my accord"
I do not see how that question is doing anything but attempting some sort of gotcha or accusation that these people
Your these people just seems to have some very oddly drawn lines is the heart of it. It does include poor drivers, to whom speed cameras are a problem and not that much of a solution, it does not seem to include poor people not in a car, who profit from this. My FALGSOC doesn't have speed cameras in it - who's would - but it's a long way from here to there.
deserve to be fucked over instead of have real designs that don't result in their lives being made harder. It seems like spite to me.
This is running on the assumption that I think people deserve to be fucked over for speeding, and that's the main motivation. Sure, some of them, but that's not the kind of distinction a speed cam could make on account of how it works. I'd very much be open to them not issuing fines but other punishments - as appropiate - to not make them so classist. Loss of driving license, if you really, really fuck up in a sports car that gets impounded or such, but I'll concede, even that is far out from today, but just to point it out,
My point here is that for every one it fucks over, it helps other people not being fucked over, because it does do something against speeding. My line of reasoning for speed cams is not that it fucks people over, it's that it helps people. You wanna focus on the first part, I'm trying to get you to see the issue is more complex than that, at least if you include people outside of cars in your consideration. They're not a good solution, by any means, again, I assume our optimal way of solving it is quite similar. For the meantime though, the fuck else do you do? Just abandon all traffic enforcement until all the roads get fixed? So what, 20 years of being vulnerable road users being even more endangered than now?
My point here is that for every one it fucks over, it helps other people not being fucked over, because it does do something against speeding. My line of reasoning for speed cams is not that it fucks people over, it's that it helps people. You wanna focus on the first part, I'm trying to get you to see the issue is more complex than that, at least if you include people outside of cars in your consideration.
Well my line of reasoning is that there is an alternative that fucks no poor people over, and that taking action to achieve that end us a good thing. A negative in the short term leads to a longterm positive.
Also I see no other method of doing this. If you go to the council and say "I want to replace this highly profitable traffic camera making hundreds of thousands per year with a traffic island that will make no money at all" the decision that any team will make internally is obvious. That issue inevitably leads to destruction of these cameras as the only method of causing the alternative to occur.
A negative in the short term leads to a longterm positive.
I do not want to die a martyr to the fight against traffic cams.
Also I see no other method of doing this. If you go to the council and say "I want to replace this highly profitable traffic camera making hundreds of thousands per year with a traffic island that will make no money at all" the decision that any team will make internally is obvious.
That kind of poses the second question as to what, in the interim, will be cut as per budget, but that's a sidenote. I guarantee you without change far reaching enough to societally gain a new understanding of public space and roads, when the last speed cam is dismantled you'll find all the roads still suck ass and will not be redesigned. Once you have the change so far reaching that you can reunderstand basically every road, yeah, then you don't need the traffic cams anymore and they can be dismantled.
I was ruder than I should've been, I thought you were the other person who has irritated me a bit.
I guarantee you without change far reaching enough to societally gain a new understanding of public space and roads
This is the weird fantasy part I was referring to. It's like, just nonsense. It comes off like an american attitude being ported to the UK with absolutely no adaptation whatsoever to British conditions. Our conditions are nothing like america. Getting rid of cameras and getting traffic calming measures installed instead is not particularly difficult, it's about the same. This idea of complete and widespread reinterpretation of public space? It doesn't make sense here.
The particular road from the OP is a main road through rural space between major locations. By American standards it would be considered idyllic.
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Parts of the road already have traffic calming measures.
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This is very easily expanded upon with the addition of chicanes, which are in wide use (hundreds of thousands) across the country.
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There's no "reimagining" needed here. People don't need to develop a new consciousness of public space. We do not live in a country that is utterly obsessed with cars like america. And we aren't opposed to limiting them. There are zero political barriers to this, the only barrier is the profit/revenue barrier of the traffic camera obsessed crowd. I must stress, I am not just cherrypicking out rare projects that look good. This shit is bog standard, everywhere in the country already. In every town, in every village, in every city. Outisde every school. In every residential area. All over the country.
It is categorically not the same environment here and we do not share the same political barriers or problems.
This is the weird fantasy part I was referring to. It's like, just nonsense. It comes off like an american attitude being ported to the UK with absolutely no adaptation whatsoever to British conditions. Our conditions are nothing like america. Getting rid of cameras and getting traffic calming measures installed instead is not particularly difficult, it's about the same. This idea of complete and widespread reinterpretation of public space? It doesn't make sense here.
I'm german tho.
By American standards it would be considered idyllic.
As such, I do not believe american standards as per roads are anything to go by
Parts of the road already have traffic calming measures.
That's not really gonna stop anybody from speeding down the remaining lane(s) because they're still very wide. It's good for pedestrians, probably, don't get me wrong, doesn't really fight the speeding problem at all.
This is very easily expanded upon with the addition of chicanes, which are in wide use (hundreds of thousands) across the country.
These do
There's no "reimagining" needed here. People don't need to develop a new consciousness of public space.
Those are very much spotwork as per slowing down cars. They work for that spot, yes. It is however absolutely not hard to accelerate a car again. This is a good idea to slow people down before a busy or a school crossing or something, the third picture especially is just going to lead to slow down / wait -> mash gas pedal
We do not live in a country that is utterly obsessed with cars like america.
True, but also nigh about the lowest bar to clear right after like Saudi Arabia.
There are zero political barriers to this, the only barrier is the profit/revenue barrier of the traffic camera obsessed crowd.
And you accuse me of living in some fantasy reality?
In every town, in every village, in every city. Outisde every school. In every residential area. All over the country.
Same, could find similar features here by looking out my old apartments window. Hell, do you one better than that, we have shit like this
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Sorry for the grainy pictures, didn't wanna spend that much time on google. Now that's a road you can't speed on, on account of many chicanes and other built up enviroments, not just the single one and then it's open road before and after.
Doesn't mean the rest of it isn't incredibly car brained and hostile, and as such, transportation by foot or cycling sucks major ass.
If your vision of not being carbrained is "do better than the USA", yeah, you're there, but that shouldn't be the end goal
I've posed this question elsewhere in this thread and: what until then? Like what do you do until a good, what, 50 - 90% of road depending on criteria, is redesigned?
The process and length of time it takes for either option are practically the same. It's irrelevant. Not to mention a traffic island costs like £3k while a camera costs £85k (guess why they pick the camera despite the price).
Sure, but you're arguing for like instant speed camera abolishment or destruction here, aye?
Dunno if you got to that one already but I've did a reply pointing out where you're a bit off there
As a means of discouraging their construction in the first place and the harm they do to the poor I am defending the person who did this.
I am not advocating anyone do anything illegal.
You can just say yes, you don't have to couch this shit in a good WKUK skit.
Do they do harm to the poor that are on bicycles, or walking, then?
Having been to court twice for online related stuff I will absolutely couch this shit.
I do not see how that question is doing anything but attempting some sort of gotcha or accusation that these people deserve to be fucked over instead of have real designs that don't result in their lives being made harder. It seems like spite to me.
Fair, I meant it more on "don't do it on my accord"
Your these people just seems to have some very oddly drawn lines is the heart of it. It does include poor drivers, to whom speed cameras are a problem and not that much of a solution, it does not seem to include poor people not in a car, who profit from this. My FALGSOC doesn't have speed cameras in it - who's would - but it's a long way from here to there.
This is running on the assumption that I think people deserve to be fucked over for speeding, and that's the main motivation. Sure, some of them, but that's not the kind of distinction a speed cam could make on account of how it works. I'd very much be open to them not issuing fines but other punishments - as appropiate - to not make them so classist. Loss of driving license, if you really, really fuck up in a sports car that gets impounded or such, but I'll concede, even that is far out from today, but just to point it out,
My point here is that for every one it fucks over, it helps other people not being fucked over, because it does do something against speeding. My line of reasoning for speed cams is not that it fucks people over, it's that it helps people. You wanna focus on the first part, I'm trying to get you to see the issue is more complex than that, at least if you include people outside of cars in your consideration. They're not a good solution, by any means, again, I assume our optimal way of solving it is quite similar. For the meantime though, the fuck else do you do? Just abandon all traffic enforcement until all the roads get fixed? So what, 20 years of being vulnerable road users being even more endangered than now?
Well my line of reasoning is that there is an alternative that fucks no poor people over, and that taking action to achieve that end us a good thing. A negative in the short term leads to a longterm positive.
Also I see no other method of doing this. If you go to the council and say "I want to replace this highly profitable traffic camera making hundreds of thousands per year with a traffic island that will make no money at all" the decision that any team will make internally is obvious. That issue inevitably leads to destruction of these cameras as the only method of causing the alternative to occur.
I do not want to die a martyr to the fight against traffic cams.
That kind of poses the second question as to what, in the interim, will be cut as per budget, but that's a sidenote. I guarantee you without change far reaching enough to societally gain a new understanding of public space and roads, when the last speed cam is dismantled you'll find all the roads still suck ass and will not be redesigned. Once you have the change so far reaching that you can reunderstand basically every road, yeah, then you don't need the traffic cams anymore and they can be dismantled.
Meanwhile, in the real world we must be concerned with actually viable change.
This is just factually not true, evidenced by the abundance of traffic calming measures that exists, and those that have replaced cameras.
You are inventing a fantasy reality to suit an anti car obsession. One I share, car reduction is good. However you're being a tit now.
Real Zach Brannigan hours here on account of "It might get a lot of other people killed but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"
What part of this is fantasy. Like where do you see the political potential for a nigh nationwide road redesign.
I was ruder than I should've been, I thought you were the other person who has irritated me a bit.
This is the weird fantasy part I was referring to. It's like, just nonsense. It comes off like an american attitude being ported to the UK with absolutely no adaptation whatsoever to British conditions. Our conditions are nothing like america. Getting rid of cameras and getting traffic calming measures installed instead is not particularly difficult, it's about the same. This idea of complete and widespread reinterpretation of public space? It doesn't make sense here.
The particular road from the OP is a main road through rural space between major locations. By American standards it would be considered idyllic.
Parts of the road already have traffic calming measures.
This is very easily expanded upon with the addition of chicanes, which are in wide use (hundreds of thousands) across the country.
There's no "reimagining" needed here. People don't need to develop a new consciousness of public space. We do not live in a country that is utterly obsessed with cars like america. And we aren't opposed to limiting them. There are zero political barriers to this, the only barrier is the profit/revenue barrier of the traffic camera obsessed crowd. I must stress, I am not just cherrypicking out rare projects that look good. This shit is bog standard, everywhere in the country already. In every town, in every village, in every city. Outisde every school. In every residential area. All over the country.
It is categorically not the same environment here and we do not share the same political barriers or problems.
I'm german tho.
As such, I do not believe american standards as per roads are anything to go by
That's not really gonna stop anybody from speeding down the remaining lane(s) because they're still very wide. It's good for pedestrians, probably, don't get me wrong, doesn't really fight the speeding problem at all.
These do
Those are very much spotwork as per slowing down cars. They work for that spot, yes. It is however absolutely not hard to accelerate a car again. This is a good idea to slow people down before a busy or a school crossing or something, the third picture especially is just going to lead to slow down / wait -> mash gas pedal
True, but also nigh about the lowest bar to clear right after like Saudi Arabia.
And you accuse me of living in some fantasy reality?
Same, could find similar features here by looking out my old apartments window. Hell, do you one better than that, we have shit like this
Sorry for the grainy pictures, didn't wanna spend that much time on google. Now that's a road you can't speed on, on account of many chicanes and other built up enviroments, not just the single one and then it's open road before and after.
Doesn't mean the rest of it isn't incredibly car brained and hostile, and as such, transportation by foot or cycling sucks major ass.
If your vision of not being carbrained is "do better than the USA", yeah, you're there, but that shouldn't be the end goal