Roger Waters is very dumb but dumb people tend to like him because he says some things they like. So what happens when he 'debates' an even dumber liberal on...
Roger Waters - Comfortably Numb, Bad Empanada - Confident and Dumb
I for one have never called anyone here or anyone else not here a revionist or tankie or whatever other dunk/own, or even wanted to, it’s really not that hard
Again I don’t think tolerating anti-aes and chauvinist views is worth the moral superiority of being “anti-sectarian” this is basically the tolerance paradox for socialists. All the solidarity to socialists of all stripes but I don’t think allowing chauvinist elements into the broad left is good and they should be critiqued and spoken out against
You have to agree with the premise it was chauvinist, and that is for sure up for debate, unless you’re the authority on what is chauvinist, if the other posters above decided on that this would literally just be GZD
Yeah I believe this is what the kids call “having a take.” Chauvinism in general is complicated subject and obviously there’s gonna be different pov. Chasing some kind of universal agreeance is fruitless and kinda lib tbh and gutless fence sitting. Generally it’s taken to mean supporting western imperialist nations bc of taking their view on something as the default. And that is generally to me, not worth allowing in the space.
We can have a lot of arguments about whether you and I are correct but that we can debate it doesn’t justify tolerating it. We can debate all kinds of shit that we generally take to be bad. Should we allow pro-landlord takes here bc whether it’s bad or good is “up for debate”? Certainly you and I aren’t the arbiter of what is universally true in any circumstance.
I agree, I just think tossing arounds ultras to people the left of you you don’t like is just as childish and dumb as libs throwing around tankies to people to the left of them they don’t like and should be pushed back on
I think there’s a lot of supposition in whether or not that counts as “to the left of you.” If you end up supporting imperialist nations against aes idk how “left” that really is and I think that’s why it worthy of critique
That said I mean we’re gonna call them something right? Like whatever we name them is gonna be interpreted as a pejorative when we consistently use it to critique them. You could be having this exact convo with me but change out the word for chauvinist for example. I really don’t see the point in running so much defense for a group especially if you agree that chauvinist takes are bad.
People are to the left and right of each other and that's okay most people would agree left to right mao, xi, deng and that would not cause debate so why would people using a word to make fun of someone who prefers mao politics over xi politics not punching left ...
there really isn't a debate that using the word ultra would be targeting someone to the left of you, leftism does not automatically equate to good or practical or whatever ascribed values, but it is still more to the left
you do not have not support imperialist nations, by not critically supporting x country, you can firmly oppose western invention and imperialism and don't have to give props to a state that is in many other ways abhorrent ...
Lol I mean at this level that’s just cringe polcomp type shit. Politics does t exist on a flat plane. It’s really just an ultra view to say ok actually anything that isn’t particularly my interpretation of Marx is to the right of me. Everyone else was busy building something, incl non marxists to be honest. People exist all over the place wrt to interpretations of socialism, liberalism, whatever
But whatever you consider yourself, and wherever you see yourself on an imaginary plane, if your ideology consistently leads you to side with imperialist nations (sometimes no for some but generally often) and keeps you from seeing a country that lifted countless people out of poverty, has been basically the sole country to make the general gains against poverty in the last half decade and if you take them out it completely falls apart, is the only country that consistently holds capital accountable to the law and not above it, amongst millions of other advancements, or take the responses to conditions placed upon them by the imperialist west in dprk and other countries cases as universally bad and exempts them from being socialist bc you’re too caught up in believing imperialist nonsense, than that ideology should be unwelcome
I for one have never called anyone here or anyone else not here a revionist or tankie or whatever other dunk/own, or even wanted to, it’s really not that hard
Again I don’t think tolerating anti-aes and chauvinist views is worth the moral superiority of being “anti-sectarian” this is basically the tolerance paradox for socialists. All the solidarity to socialists of all stripes but I don’t think allowing chauvinist elements into the broad left is good and they should be critiqued and spoken out against
You have to agree with the premise it was chauvinist, and that is for sure up for debate, unless you’re the authority on what is chauvinist, if the other posters above decided on that this would literally just be GZD
didn’t critically support chauvinist
didn’t call China socialist chauvinist
etc etc
Yeah I believe this is what the kids call “having a take.” Chauvinism in general is complicated subject and obviously there’s gonna be different pov. Chasing some kind of universal agreeance is fruitless and kinda lib tbh and gutless fence sitting. Generally it’s taken to mean supporting western imperialist nations bc of taking their view on something as the default. And that is generally to me, not worth allowing in the space.
We can have a lot of arguments about whether you and I are correct but that we can debate it doesn’t justify tolerating it. We can debate all kinds of shit that we generally take to be bad. Should we allow pro-landlord takes here bc whether it’s bad or good is “up for debate”? Certainly you and I aren’t the arbiter of what is universally true in any circumstance.
I agree, I just think tossing arounds ultras to people the left of you you don’t like is just as childish and dumb as libs throwing around tankies to people to the left of them they don’t like and should be pushed back on
I think there’s a lot of supposition in whether or not that counts as “to the left of you.” If you end up supporting imperialist nations against aes idk how “left” that really is and I think that’s why it worthy of critique
That said I mean we’re gonna call them something right? Like whatever we name them is gonna be interpreted as a pejorative when we consistently use it to critique them. You could be having this exact convo with me but change out the word for chauvinist for example. I really don’t see the point in running so much defense for a group especially if you agree that chauvinist takes are bad.
People are to the left and right of each other and that's okay most people would agree left to right mao, xi, deng and that would not cause debate so why would people using a word to make fun of someone who prefers mao politics over xi politics not punching left ... there really isn't a debate that using the word ultra would be targeting someone to the left of you, leftism does not automatically equate to good or practical or whatever ascribed values, but it is still more to the left
you do not have not support imperialist nations, by not critically supporting x country, you can firmly oppose western invention and imperialism and don't have to give props to a state that is in many other ways abhorrent ...
Lol I mean at this level that’s just cringe polcomp type shit. Politics does t exist on a flat plane. It’s really just an ultra view to say ok actually anything that isn’t particularly my interpretation of Marx is to the right of me. Everyone else was busy building something, incl non marxists to be honest. People exist all over the place wrt to interpretations of socialism, liberalism, whatever
But whatever you consider yourself, and wherever you see yourself on an imaginary plane, if your ideology consistently leads you to side with imperialist nations (sometimes no for some but generally often) and keeps you from seeing a country that lifted countless people out of poverty, has been basically the sole country to make the general gains against poverty in the last half decade and if you take them out it completely falls apart, is the only country that consistently holds capital accountable to the law and not above it, amongst millions of other advancements, or take the responses to conditions placed upon them by the imperialist west in dprk and other countries cases as universally bad and exempts them from being socialist bc you’re too caught up in believing imperialist nonsense, than that ideology should be unwelcome
CW hostile, but I also had no clue what they were saying, I'm sorry
???