There is no physical theory of human consciousness, experience, and perception.
No, but the human brain is still a physical/chemical machine and it still needs to process a set of homogeneous information. At some point you have to identify the part of the body that's doing the conversion from photon to information and say "Look! See! Brain X is doing this but Brain Y is doing that."
In some of the experiments above, we absolutely can do that. In others, say - by recreating the structure of the eye and realizing the image we get is upside down - we can simply infer that the brain has to do some amount of work to correct for things universally.
But if you just assert, carte blanche, that where you see a "2" I see a "3", and wave off any argument as a qualia... no. That's just not how things work.
that doesn't make subjective experiences explicable in objective, abstract terms.
We can engage in objective measurement of subjective participants and hunt for inconsistencies in experience. We can put a filter over each person's eye, knowing that they'll only experience X+1 and X-1, but not X, in order to factor down what each person does or doesn't perceive.
But these artifacts of consciousness come from somewhere and are processed/stored by something. And these biological machines do all operate on the same physical principles.
So, baring some real evidence to the contrary, it doesn't follow that one guy just sees a 400nm wave as a 700nm wave.
In some of the experiments above, we absolutely can do that.
Until and unless we can image thoughts down to the detail, no, we can't do much more than "this region of the brain lights up when it sees something".
we can simply infer that the brain has to do some amount of work to correct for things universally
We can infer that people are able to navigate and make sense of the world regardless of the inverting effect of the eye. We cannot infer the experience of seeing nor explain it in physical terms.
if you just assert, carte blanche, that where you see a "2" I see a "3", and wave off any argument as a qualia
That is not the argument at all.
it doesn't follow that one guy just sees a 400nm wave as a 700nm wave.
That is not the argument either. It is a question of the experience of perceiving the color blue. Note that in the OP, the observer can consistently identify a 400nm wave regardless of how they perceive it, as long as that perception is consistent. It only needs to be consistent for that observer, not between observers.
Until and unless we can image thoughts down to the detail
You don't need to image thoughts of color to recognize common ability to distinguish them any more than you would with shapes or quantities. These are quantifiable metrics, after all.
We can infer that people are able to navigate and make sense of the world regardless of the inverting effect of the eye. We cannot infer the experience of seeing nor explain it in physical terms.
We can, once we understand the mechanics of light passing through a camera obscura. These questions aren't trivial to answer, but they are answerable. What's more, we have already answered them.
We cannot infer the experience of seeing nor explain it in physical terms.
We can and we routinely do. That gets us into the language of colors and the way description shapes perception. We can consistently reproduce the phenomena of perceived color by language demographic.
It is a question of the experience of perceiving the color blue.
The experience is still a consequence of a mechanical effect. Namely, the brain processes certain frequencies of light in a particular manner. The only way to conclude that I'm seeing a 300nm shift in the color spectrum relative to you is to explain the mechanical gap in our cognition. And if I'm that far off the mark, I should be able to measure the difference relative to the midpoints very easily. This is all quantifiable. It shows up in medical diagnosis as various forms of color blindness or hyper-sensitivity.
OP asserts a dramatic shift in perception that absolutely should be something a physician looking for it can spot. The trick OP plays is that they're only working from a single data point (a very particular shade of red) rather than a full spectrum of colors. As soon as you lay out a rainbow for the child, you'll recognize the difference between their perception and the human standard.
The trick OP plays is that they're only working from a single data point (a very particular shade of red) rather than a full spectrum of colors. As soon as you lay out a rainbow for the child, you'll recognize the difference between their perception and the human standard.
Not to be rude but I don't think you understand the post if that is your stance. Adding more colors would not change the scenario at all. If your conscious, internal experience of all the colors is like mine except rotated by one (so that my ROYGBIV is your OYGBIVR) we would still be in 100% agreement about the color of any test object. The experience of color does not affect the test result, as long as it is consistent for each of us: whatever you experience in your mind is always the same in response to 400 nm light, and the same for myself, although my experience is not necessarily identical to your experience.
The above example is not equivalent to "I see 500 nm light and you see 400 nm light". We would both agree on the physical property of the light. The experience is what could, in principle, differ.
How can RGB compose properly edge colour like yellow? Intensity curve would be reversed. Why only the visible spectrum inverted centered on median human visible colour? This is a very human-centric way to think. "Inversion" is not a universal concept.
If your pet dog would like to join the conversation, they can speak up, but until then it is reasonable to focus on the experiences of those who can communicate them to us for the purpose of discussing fundamental blindspots in communication.
The lower wavelength and higher do not mix evenly. Hues will look more like the higher energy short wavelength at swapped values. Vision is also stronger at middle of range to high wavelength end, can see green-yellow better. Computer monitors would mix colours differently for different people and would not reproduce natural colours for some.
If there are differences in cognitive perception of colour they are not so simple as "inversion" and are unknowable with current understanding and do not have much meaning I think. Idea that perception of them is tangible enough to be invertible binary does not make much sense to me. Only Allah SWT can know.
If your conscious, internal experience of all the colors is like mine except rotated by one (so that my ROYGBIV is your OYGBIVR) we would still be in 100% agreement about the color of any test object
I think color theory demonstrates that this isn't true and it would need to be an inverted rainbow or one of "new" colors in order to stay consistent.
If two people agree that R + G = Y, in no way does that constrain or tell us anything about the conscious experience of each person in relation to those colors, except that it is consistent for each person, but not necessarily between them.
Sure, but are the categories of "warm" and "cool" purely a learned thing or are they an inherent connection in how we perceive things? Someone perceiving V as R and I as V would still get a smooth gradient of colors in terms of addition and subtraction, but that isn't the only thing to consider.
No, but the human brain is still a physical/chemical machine and it still needs to process a set of homogeneous information. At some point you have to identify the part of the body that's doing the conversion from photon to information and say "Look! See! Brain X is doing this but Brain Y is doing that."
In some of the experiments above, we absolutely can do that. In others, say - by recreating the structure of the eye and realizing the image we get is upside down - we can simply infer that the brain has to do some amount of work to correct for things universally.
But if you just assert, carte blanche, that where you see a "2" I see a "3", and wave off any argument as a qualia... no. That's just not how things work.
We can engage in objective measurement of subjective participants and hunt for inconsistencies in experience. We can put a filter over each person's eye, knowing that they'll only experience X+1 and X-1, but not X, in order to factor down what each person does or doesn't perceive.
But these artifacts of consciousness come from somewhere and are processed/stored by something. And these biological machines do all operate on the same physical principles.
So, baring some real evidence to the contrary, it doesn't follow that one guy just sees a 400nm wave as a 700nm wave.
Until and unless we can image thoughts down to the detail, no, we can't do much more than "this region of the brain lights up when it sees something".
We can infer that people are able to navigate and make sense of the world regardless of the inverting effect of the eye. We cannot infer the experience of seeing nor explain it in physical terms.
That is not the argument at all.
That is not the argument either. It is a question of the experience of perceiving the color blue. Note that in the OP, the observer can consistently identify a 400nm wave regardless of how they perceive it, as long as that perception is consistent. It only needs to be consistent for that observer, not between observers.
You don't need to image thoughts of color to recognize common ability to distinguish them any more than you would with shapes or quantities. These are quantifiable metrics, after all.
We can, once we understand the mechanics of light passing through a camera obscura. These questions aren't trivial to answer, but they are answerable. What's more, we have already answered them.
We can and we routinely do. That gets us into the language of colors and the way description shapes perception. We can consistently reproduce the phenomena of perceived color by language demographic.
The experience is still a consequence of a mechanical effect. Namely, the brain processes certain frequencies of light in a particular manner. The only way to conclude that I'm seeing a 300nm shift in the color spectrum relative to you is to explain the mechanical gap in our cognition. And if I'm that far off the mark, I should be able to measure the difference relative to the midpoints very easily. This is all quantifiable. It shows up in medical diagnosis as various forms of color blindness or hyper-sensitivity.
OP asserts a dramatic shift in perception that absolutely should be something a physician looking for it can spot. The trick OP plays is that they're only working from a single data point (a very particular shade of red) rather than a full spectrum of colors. As soon as you lay out a rainbow for the child, you'll recognize the difference between their perception and the human standard.
Not to be rude but I don't think you understand the post if that is your stance. Adding more colors would not change the scenario at all. If your conscious, internal experience of all the colors is like mine except rotated by one (so that my ROYGBIV is your OYGBIVR) we would still be in 100% agreement about the color of any test object. The experience of color does not affect the test result, as long as it is consistent for each of us: whatever you experience in your mind is always the same in response to 400 nm light, and the same for myself, although my experience is not necessarily identical to your experience.
The above example is not equivalent to "I see 500 nm light and you see 400 nm light". We would both agree on the physical property of the light. The experience is what could, in principle, differ.
How can RGB compose properly edge colour like yellow? Intensity curve would be reversed. Why only the visible spectrum inverted centered on median human visible colour? This is a very human-centric way to think. "Inversion" is not a universal concept.
If your pet dog would like to join the conversation, they can speak up, but until then it is reasonable to focus on the experiences of those who can communicate them to us for the purpose of discussing fundamental blindspots in communication.
The only way, I'd argue
I'm not sure what you mean
The lower wavelength and higher do not mix evenly. Hues will look more like the higher energy short wavelength at swapped values. Vision is also stronger at middle of range to high wavelength end, can see green-yellow better. Computer monitors would mix colours differently for different people and would not reproduce natural colours for some.
If there are differences in cognitive perception of colour they are not so simple as "inversion" and are unknowable with current understanding and do not have much meaning I think. Idea that perception of them is tangible enough to be invertible binary does not make much sense to me. Only Allah SWT can know.
I think color theory demonstrates that this isn't true and it would need to be an inverted rainbow or one of "new" colors in order to stay consistent.
If two people agree that R + G = Y, in no way does that constrain or tell us anything about the conscious experience of each person in relation to those colors, except that it is consistent for each person, but not necessarily between them.
Sure, but are the categories of "warm" and "cool" purely a learned thing or are they an inherent connection in how we perceive things? Someone perceiving V as R and I as V would still get a smooth gradient of colors in terms of addition and subtraction, but that isn't the only thing to consider.
Yes, warm and cool colors are abstract concepts, they are not physical things beyond wavelength.
Abstract or not, they may still be part of a human's psychology