None of this is a refutation of the idea that someone could experience the color spectrum in an inverted fashion. Red- and blue-shifting would just have their warming/cooling reversed along with everything else.
Red- and blue-shifting would just have their warming/cooling reversed
No. Because these are magnitudes. A red-shift would not cause you to perceive things in reverse any more than someone with a handful of beans would be perceived as adding beans by taking them away.
You are smarter than this, come on. This whole time I think everyone has been clear that we're talking about the sensation itself and not the stimulus itself. We are not talking about heat in terms of the vibration of molecules but in terms of someone's internal experience of something being hot. We aren't talking about pressure in terms of psi or atms but the tactile sense, such that someone with no sense of touch would be irrelevant to that conversation even though we recognize that the physical phenomenon of pressure applies just as much to them as anyone else and they'd have been squished if they were in the Titan sub just as quickly as those sorry jackasses were.
Just to make it easier to put in words, let's phrase it in terms of sound (afaik this is the original observation of the doppler effect anyway). If someone's perception of pitch was reversed, such that flies buzzing made a low-pitched noise and earthquakes were mainly high-pitched noise, the terms "high" and "low" pitch are not said in correspondence to the greatness in Hz of the soundwave, but the subjective experience of the sound (which incidentally in this thought experiment has an inverse relation to the Hz). Therefore, if someone with this condition has a fly fly towards them, the doppler effect dictates that the Hz of the sound waves would be higher than a fly flying in a vertical circle where the midpoint of the listener's ears are the center. Because the Hz is higher, and we know that this person experiences higher Hz as lower pitch, the fly would have a lower-pitch buzz while it was flying towards them. Likewise, flying away would produce soundwaves of a lower Hz and therefore a higher pitch to that listener.
So in the original case with color, we know that red-shifting would produce a cooler color because the stimulus is just the stimulus and the specific mechanism by which it was formed has no bearing on how it was perceived. In normal humans, there is no difference between a shade of yellow and a shade of green that gets red-shifted to yellow, the end result is the same, so if we inverted someone's perception, this would carry over.
I completely forgot, a crude approximation of this can be seen with a negative filter on a camera! Red-shifting doesn't just magically make things redder on a negative filter because it has "red" in the name, because the negative filter interprets the warmer light waves as being cooler.
It's really funny that you use the doppler effect for this example, as it seems the absolute worst version of this possible in my mind. When things are low pitched enough, we can literally hear the movements and connect them to the object we see moving, which gives an external anchor to the problem of sebjectivity. We KNOW that low pitched things sound that way ebcause it would otherwise result in things not align visibly with the vibration/back and forth movement.
If that was historically used, then it's funny because it's the weakest form of this argument.
When I mentioned history, I meant that the sonic doppler effect was discovered before the visual doppler effect: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3743612/
I think just because it was more convenient to measure, since the idea came from a simple mathematical observation about the properties of waves. I guess it also could have come from watching buoyant objects move in water, since a boat's wake is partly a manifestation of the doppler effect as well.
If you want an actual historical text regarding the arbitrariness of sensation, the first of Charles Berkley's Three Dialogues covers it well.
Anyway, I don't see your point -- or rather, you keep missing mine -- we can say there is connection between low sounds and slow oscillation, but ultimately the correspondence in timing has only an arbitrary relation to the sensation of pitch itself, just as a blinking light being aligned in time with our experience of it does not cement the "objectivity" of the color we perceive it as. Whatever the timing is, it can be "colored in" with whatever sensation we stipulate.
Like, just think for mere seconds about the fact that synesthesia exists. Sounds can be experienced as smells, and it's an incident of evolution that we don't experience them that way.
Sorry I think you got the wrong comrade, this was my first reply. I agree with you, I just think that the high and low pitch is the worst possible choice for the argument. Like hot and cold have no external comparison, but the qualia of high and low pitch is very literally connected to another sense (in this case the sight of a low pitched subwoofer or such). Even when moving and causing the Doppler effect to you as observer, that anchor still exists just with a shift that is also externally explainable.
Sight, hot/cold, all kinds of smells, all have a sense of disconnection between sense and qualia. How you hear complex sounds (filters or such) introduces qualia
But remember, we actually agree, I just think your example wasn't good to convince anybody else
None of this is a refutation of the idea that someone could experience the color spectrum in an inverted fashion. Red- and blue-shifting would just have their warming/cooling reversed along with everything else.
No. Because these are magnitudes. A red-shift would not cause you to perceive things in reverse any more than someone with a handful of beans would be perceived as adding beans by taking them away.
You are smarter than this, come on. This whole time I think everyone has been clear that we're talking about the sensation itself and not the stimulus itself. We are not talking about heat in terms of the vibration of molecules but in terms of someone's internal experience of something being hot. We aren't talking about pressure in terms of psi or atms but the tactile sense, such that someone with no sense of touch would be irrelevant to that conversation even though we recognize that the physical phenomenon of pressure applies just as much to them as anyone else and they'd have been squished if they were in the Titan sub just as quickly as those sorry jackasses were.
Just to make it easier to put in words, let's phrase it in terms of sound (afaik this is the original observation of the doppler effect anyway). If someone's perception of pitch was reversed, such that flies buzzing made a low-pitched noise and earthquakes were mainly high-pitched noise, the terms "high" and "low" pitch are not said in correspondence to the greatness in Hz of the soundwave, but the subjective experience of the sound (which incidentally in this thought experiment has an inverse relation to the Hz). Therefore, if someone with this condition has a fly fly towards them, the doppler effect dictates that the Hz of the sound waves would be higher than a fly flying in a vertical circle where the midpoint of the listener's ears are the center. Because the Hz is higher, and we know that this person experiences higher Hz as lower pitch, the fly would have a lower-pitch buzz while it was flying towards them. Likewise, flying away would produce soundwaves of a lower Hz and therefore a higher pitch to that listener.
So in the original case with color, we know that red-shifting would produce a cooler color because the stimulus is just the stimulus and the specific mechanism by which it was formed has no bearing on how it was perceived. In normal humans, there is no difference between a shade of yellow and a shade of green that gets red-shifted to yellow, the end result is the same, so if we inverted someone's perception, this would carry over.
I completely forgot, a crude approximation of this can be seen with a negative filter on a camera! Red-shifting doesn't just magically make things redder on a negative filter because it has "red" in the name, because the negative filter interprets the warmer light waves as being cooler.
It's really funny that you use the doppler effect for this example, as it seems the absolute worst version of this possible in my mind. When things are low pitched enough, we can literally hear the movements and connect them to the object we see moving, which gives an external anchor to the problem of sebjectivity. We KNOW that low pitched things sound that way ebcause it would otherwise result in things not align visibly with the vibration/back and forth movement.
If that was historically used, then it's funny because it's the weakest form of this argument.
When I mentioned history, I meant that the sonic doppler effect was discovered before the visual doppler effect: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3743612/
I think just because it was more convenient to measure, since the idea came from a simple mathematical observation about the properties of waves. I guess it also could have come from watching buoyant objects move in water, since a boat's wake is partly a manifestation of the doppler effect as well.
If you want an actual historical text regarding the arbitrariness of sensation, the first of Charles Berkley's Three Dialogues covers it well.
Anyway, I don't see your point -- or rather, you keep missing mine -- we can say there is connection between low sounds and slow oscillation, but ultimately the correspondence in timing has only an arbitrary relation to the sensation of pitch itself, just as a blinking light being aligned in time with our experience of it does not cement the "objectivity" of the color we perceive it as. Whatever the timing is, it can be "colored in" with whatever sensation we stipulate.
Like, just think for mere seconds about the fact that synesthesia exists. Sounds can be experienced as smells, and it's an incident of evolution that we don't experience them that way.
Sorry I think you got the wrong comrade, this was my first reply. I agree with you, I just think that the high and low pitch is the worst possible choice for the argument. Like hot and cold have no external comparison, but the qualia of high and low pitch is very literally connected to another sense (in this case the sight of a low pitched subwoofer or such). Even when moving and causing the Doppler effect to you as observer, that anchor still exists just with a shift that is also externally explainable.
Sight, hot/cold, all kinds of smells, all have a sense of disconnection between sense and qualia. How you hear complex sounds (filters or such) introduces qualia
But remember, we actually agree, I just think your example wasn't good to convince anybody else