Did Sinovac also conduct and publish the reports you're basing the efficacy of Western vaccines on?
Did the Sinovac study actually compare Chinese vaccine effectiveness to Western effectiveness using the same methodology, or are you comparing apples to CIA oranges?
ΟΚ got it, vaccines are CIA now apparently. Pointless to continue this convo if you're just going to dismiss every research that has been conducted in multiple countries as CIA like some antivaxxer.
If you don't think vaccines serve an arm of American and Western foreign policy then I don't know what to tell you. If you want me to accept that Chinese vaccines are "objectively" less effective then you can point me at a comparative study from a reliable source that isn't in the pocket of the US, or acting for its own bare profit motive.
some antivaxxer
I think there's some middle ground between anti-vaxx and uncritically accepting the statements of big pharma and the USG when money is involved, but I guess I'm just dumb.
If you don’t think vaccines serve an arm of American and Western foreign policy then I don’t know what to tell you. I
WTF does that have to do with anything?
I think there’s some middle ground between anti-vaxx and uncritically accepting the statements of big pharma and the USG when money is involved, but I guess I’m just dumb.
Dude you are straight up saying exactly what anti vaxxers are saying.
The Sinovac results from places where there was a decent sample size showed they are 50-65% effective. This is lower than the other vaccines, except for AZ against the beta variant in particular (although more recent results were better, and there aren't official results on how Sinovac fares against the variants yet). Maybe it is comparable to AZ but the mRNA vaccines as well as Sputnik V have had much better results pretty consistently. Brazil bought and tested Sinovac as well as many other vaccines including Pfizer, AZ and Moderna, Sinovac just didn't fare as well. China didn't contest the results so I'm not sure why you are. . You have no solid basis to say there's some vast worldwide conspiracy to somehow fake all these results over and over again. If you believe that you might as well just reject the vaccines in general, since apparently every relevant research is unreliable, except for Sinopharm/Sinovac which I suppose doesn't sell them for profit lmao. Like why the fuck would you want people to use a product en masse when there exists no reliable research about it? It's bizarre that people can both hold this position AND the position that there should be mandatory vaccinations.
If you want me to accept that Chinese vaccines are “objectively” less effective then you can point me at a comparative study from a reliable source that isn’t in the pocket of the US, or acting for its own bare profit motive.
It's impossible for me to do that because whatever I bring up you'll find some convoluted way how it's actually CIA or whatever because you've clearly already decided it. It's pointless. They are objectively less effective according to relevant research that has been released. If you just wanna deny the research then there isn't really anything more I can give you.
Anything that is a facet of American and Western foreign policy is subject to rampant distortion and obfuscation. It's complete nonsense to look at the Biden Administration politicizing the bogus science behind the lab leak theory and still just assume that facts and figures coming out of the West aren't skewed to make themselves look good and everyone else look bad.
The Sinovac results from places where there was a decent sample size showed they are 50-65% effective. This is lower than the other vaccines, except for AZ against the beta variant in particular (although more recent results were better, and there aren’t official results on how Sinovac fares against the variants yet).
Effective define as what? Based on who's data? I keep asking simple methodological questions that any scientist would ask and be able to answer, and you keep just evading them. You say that there's "objective" data then link to it and we can talk about said data on the merits. I know you don't want to do this because your idea of "good" data comes from the fine, a-political, definitely-not-fascists of the Bolsanairo government
It’s bizarre that people can both hold this position AND the position that there should be mandatory vaccinations.
I never said this, not sure where you're even getting this from.
If you just wanna deny the research then there isn’t really anything more I can give you.
Except you haven't given me any research at all, not one link or even a citation.
I've never once denied the efficacy of any vaccination. I didn't say that the Pfizer or Moderna shot isn't effective. If there's anyone denying the efficacy of any vaccination here, it's you. You're the one spreading fear and doubt about the efficacy of the Chinese vaccines, which are the only ones available in most parts of the Global South.
I don't know how you think I'm the anti-vaxxer here when you're only one spreading information that is in any way likely to get people to not get vaccinated.
It’s complete nonsense to look at the Biden Administration politicizing the bogus science behind the lab leak theory
What does whatever the Biden admin say have to do with the multiple scientific researches that have been conducted?
Effective define as what? Based on who’s data? I keep asking simple methodological questions that any scientist would ask and be able to answer, and you keep just evading them
You know the answer to all these questions and you're basically just flinging mud. I don't believe you are being honest at all so why the hell would I bother?
I know you don’t want to do this because your idea of “good” data comes from the fine, a-political, definitely-not-fascists of the Bolsanairo government
Lmao even if it was just the Brazil studies, this just shows your ignorance of how these things work. The tests that were conducted have absolutely nothing to do with the Bolsonaro government, which has been at odds with the medical community of the country from the get go, which has taken many actions despite Bolsonaro whining about it, which is why Brazil is the top buyer of Chinese vaccines in the area. Is your argument here that Chinese companies sent their vaccines to Brazil just so that they can lie about them, and then China just didn't bother contesting them because I guess they are dumb or something, and then the Brazilian medical community decided they should buy a bunch of Chinese vaccines anyways, despite them being clearly very against the Chinese vaccines and constantly lying about them? Do you think Bolsonaro has absolute control over everything going on in the country? Because he really doesn't, Bolsonaro is a clown with very little institutional power, which is why Brazil ended up buying all these Chinese vaccines in the first place despite Bolsonaro complaining about it at multiple stages. But that is exactly the kind of half assed "analysis" I was expecting, which is why it's pointless for me to cite any studies.
I’ve never once denied the efficacy of any vaccination. I didn’t say that the Pfizer or Moderna shot isn’t effective
Yes you clearly did. You've spent these last few posts arguing that apparently every widely used vaccine except the Chinese ones is probably less effective and all the trials are basically fabricated by the CIA or whatever the fuck.
You’re the one spreading fear and doubt about the efficacy of the Chinese vaccines,
Bullshit, I'm saying what the conclusions of the trials conducted by the companies themselves said. Which does not mean they are not effective at all, they're simply objectively less effective than Pfizer, Moderna, and probably Sputnik V, perhaps it's debatable for AZ but generally AZ performs better in most tests.
which are the only ones available in most parts of the Global South.
Another ignorant statement, by far the most widely used vaccines are AstraZeneca and then Pfizer, not Sinopharm or Sinovac. Covax (which is what many poorer countries have largely relied on) only recently started buying Chinese vaccines, while the cheapest vaccine is still AZ by far. I don't know why people seem convinced the global south only has Chinese vaccines, but in fact many places primarily have the vaccines whose research you decided is fraudulent.
I don’t know how you think I’m the anti-vaxxer here when you’re only one spreading information that is in any way likely to get people to not get vaccinated.
Wow gee yeah can't see how saying that research on most vaccines except the Chinese ones is fraudulent would make people avoid vaccination.
Sinopharm and Sinovac both offer less protection against mild symptoms than mRNA vaccines, but they are able to prevent death and serious symptoms to a similar degree even against the new variants. All the bombastic headlines scrutinizing Chinese vaccines in the weeks past ignore this.
The Chinese vaccines are objectively not as effective.
Even if that's true, they're still much more effective than nothing, which is the alternative the West is offering most of the world.
Yes, that is true, however they are definitely considerably less effective according to the researches.
Studies carried out by whom, funded by whom, and based on who's data?
The researches that the Sinovac producing company conducted and published lol
Did Sinovac also conduct and publish the reports you're basing the efficacy of Western vaccines on?
Did the Sinovac study actually compare Chinese vaccine effectiveness to Western effectiveness using the same methodology, or are you comparing apples to CIA oranges?
ΟΚ got it, vaccines are CIA now apparently. Pointless to continue this convo if you're just going to dismiss every research that has been conducted in multiple countries as CIA like some antivaxxer.
If you don't think vaccines serve an arm of American and Western foreign policy then I don't know what to tell you. If you want me to accept that Chinese vaccines are "objectively" less effective then you can point me at a comparative study from a reliable source that isn't in the pocket of the US, or acting for its own bare profit motive.
I think there's some middle ground between anti-vaxx and uncritically accepting the statements of big pharma and the USG when money is involved, but I guess I'm just dumb.
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WTF does that have to do with anything?
Dude you are straight up saying exactly what anti vaxxers are saying.
The Sinovac results from places where there was a decent sample size showed they are 50-65% effective. This is lower than the other vaccines, except for AZ against the beta variant in particular (although more recent results were better, and there aren't official results on how Sinovac fares against the variants yet). Maybe it is comparable to AZ but the mRNA vaccines as well as Sputnik V have had much better results pretty consistently. Brazil bought and tested Sinovac as well as many other vaccines including Pfizer, AZ and Moderna, Sinovac just didn't fare as well. China didn't contest the results so I'm not sure why you are. . You have no solid basis to say there's some vast worldwide conspiracy to somehow fake all these results over and over again. If you believe that you might as well just reject the vaccines in general, since apparently every relevant research is unreliable, except for Sinopharm/Sinovac which I suppose doesn't sell them for profit lmao. Like why the fuck would you want people to use a product en masse when there exists no reliable research about it? It's bizarre that people can both hold this position AND the position that there should be mandatory vaccinations.
It's impossible for me to do that because whatever I bring up you'll find some convoluted way how it's actually CIA or whatever because you've clearly already decided it. It's pointless. They are objectively less effective according to relevant research that has been released. If you just wanna deny the research then there isn't really anything more I can give you.
Anything that is a facet of American and Western foreign policy is subject to rampant distortion and obfuscation. It's complete nonsense to look at the Biden Administration politicizing the bogus science behind the lab leak theory and still just assume that facts and figures coming out of the West aren't skewed to make themselves look good and everyone else look bad.
Effective define as what? Based on who's data? I keep asking simple methodological questions that any scientist would ask and be able to answer, and you keep just evading them. You say that there's "objective" data then link to it and we can talk about said data on the merits. I know you don't want to do this because your idea of "good" data comes from the fine, a-political, definitely-not-fascists of the Bolsanairo government
I never said this, not sure where you're even getting this from.
Except you haven't given me any research at all, not one link or even a citation.
I've never once denied the efficacy of any vaccination. I didn't say that the Pfizer or Moderna shot isn't effective. If there's anyone denying the efficacy of any vaccination here, it's you. You're the one spreading fear and doubt about the efficacy of the Chinese vaccines, which are the only ones available in most parts of the Global South.
I don't know how you think I'm the anti-vaxxer here when you're only one spreading information that is in any way likely to get people to not get vaccinated.
You're the anti-vaxxer here, not me.
What does whatever the Biden admin say have to do with the multiple scientific researches that have been conducted?
You know the answer to all these questions and you're basically just flinging mud. I don't believe you are being honest at all so why the hell would I bother?
Lmao even if it was just the Brazil studies, this just shows your ignorance of how these things work. The tests that were conducted have absolutely nothing to do with the Bolsonaro government, which has been at odds with the medical community of the country from the get go, which has taken many actions despite Bolsonaro whining about it, which is why Brazil is the top buyer of Chinese vaccines in the area. Is your argument here that Chinese companies sent their vaccines to Brazil just so that they can lie about them, and then China just didn't bother contesting them because I guess they are dumb or something, and then the Brazilian medical community decided they should buy a bunch of Chinese vaccines anyways, despite them being clearly very against the Chinese vaccines and constantly lying about them? Do you think Bolsonaro has absolute control over everything going on in the country? Because he really doesn't, Bolsonaro is a clown with very little institutional power, which is why Brazil ended up buying all these Chinese vaccines in the first place despite Bolsonaro complaining about it at multiple stages. But that is exactly the kind of half assed "analysis" I was expecting, which is why it's pointless for me to cite any studies.
Yes you clearly did. You've spent these last few posts arguing that apparently every widely used vaccine except the Chinese ones is probably less effective and all the trials are basically fabricated by the CIA or whatever the fuck.
Bullshit, I'm saying what the conclusions of the trials conducted by the companies themselves said. Which does not mean they are not effective at all, they're simply objectively less effective than Pfizer, Moderna, and probably Sputnik V, perhaps it's debatable for AZ but generally AZ performs better in most tests.
Another ignorant statement, by far the most widely used vaccines are AstraZeneca and then Pfizer, not Sinopharm or Sinovac. Covax (which is what many poorer countries have largely relied on) only recently started buying Chinese vaccines, while the cheapest vaccine is still AZ by far. I don't know why people seem convinced the global south only has Chinese vaccines, but in fact many places primarily have the vaccines whose research you decided is fraudulent.
Wow gee yeah can't see how saying that research on most vaccines except the Chinese ones is fraudulent would make people avoid vaccination.
This is dumb. I'm disengaging.
Critical support is apparently when China is the best and all evidence against it is CIA.
It's not even against China, it's just that it isn't the most effective vaccine at preventing infection.
Don't Pfizer and Moderna have to be stored at like -30°C or something
Yes, that's one downside, they are also quite expensive. I'm talking in terms of how effective they are.
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Sinopharm and Sinovac both offer less protection against mild symptoms than mRNA vaccines, but they are able to prevent death and serious symptoms to a similar degree even against the new variants. All the bombastic headlines scrutinizing Chinese vaccines in the weeks past ignore this.