America Is Running Out of Everything The global supply chain is slowing down at the very moment when Americans are demanding that it go into overdrive. By Derek Thompson
America Is Running Out of Everything The global supply chain is slowing down at the very moment when Americans are demanding that it go into overdrive. By Derek Thompson
Even if this plan is fully funded and realized, isn’t it just inevitable it’ll all end up overseas again because of the pursuit of profit? Unless the federal gov subsidizes it for the rest of time.
Yeah, there is no market solution to this. This declining rate of profit is one of the key contradictions marx talks about
:curious-marx:
Eli5 to dis dum dum
You can look up "Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall", but it's essentially (very condensed) the hypothesis that more automation makes things less profitable (because added value comes from labor), which is one of the reasons capitalism will inevitably collapse on itself.
Bold of you to assume my ADHD will allow me to look it up.
Jokes aside, can I get an example or scenario where
This happens? (Easier for me to understand it conceptually that way)
Or you can ignore das ok.
Edited preface: in writing my simplified explanation, I did butcher this a bit. As SadStruggle92 points out below, what's meant by "labor" here is the average labor necessary to produce a given commodity, not the labor of a specific worker. It's the socially-necessary labor-time, the actual basis for the Labor Theory of Value.
IE someone taking three times as long to make something as the average worker adds the same amount of value, rather than three times as much - which, incidentally, is a gotcha a lot of liberals who've never read Marx think they've found in the LTV. The below is only meant as a quick explanation, please read Capital if you really want all the detail.
It's as @Alaskaball said, to decrease costs companies automate more. This means less labor. Since labor is the only thing that can really actually create value, less labor necessary means less value added means less profit.
For example, if a worker makes widgets and produces $100 an hour of value, he might only be paid $20. This is $80 of profit for the owner of the factory. Let's assume that the whole industry is like this, at a kind of cost-profit equilibrium.
Now, there's a technological innovation and that worker is replaced by a machine that only costs $10 per hour to run. For a short amount of time, the owner will make more, but as that automation spreads around to competitors he'll be forced to decrease the sale price to compete, until he can no longer decrease it further (i.e. tends towards no profit, only covering costs of machine).
Or, in other words, machines can only impart the value they hold (investment to buy and maintain them) into products, since they do no labor. Workers alone can produce added value. Honestly, I feel like I'm kind of butchering it, but Capital covers it pretty well IIRC.
What happens when no profit anymore? Market crash? Bailout? Subsidize?
All possible responses, yeah. Marx also had a list of things that help (temporarily) raise the rate of profit, which I'm going to copy from Wikipedia.
There's an economist (several, I think, but one that I know of off the top of my head) who's sort of made demonstrating the TRPF hypothesis his life's work. He's got a blog at thenextrecession.wordpress.com if you're interested in seeing modern, real-world data related to this.
Thanks for the explanation and that blog. I'll check it out.
But something's got to give at some point right, where it reaches a breaking point?
Yeah, and there's ways it can be mitigated. That blog has some sort-of-case-studies about it. But the idea of the TRPF hypothesis is that it's eventually not reconcilable and the economy will destroy itself. For example, imagine an economy where no one worked and everything was fully automated. How would it be possible to profit?
So FALGSC is inevitable?
I always hesitate to use "inevitable" because it feels like counting chickens before they've hatched. For example, society could destroy itself in a climate apocalypse. :agony-mescaline:
But, like, eventually? Yeah, things should tend towards it.
Also you could end up like last time and have a giant global war over shares of profit. Thereby destroying a ton of aggregate capital and reseting accumulation.
Why do I feel like that's the most likely scenario :deeper-sadness:
Damn theres that too. Insha Allah Xi pushes the button before that happens
monkey's paw curls
He does, but it's the wrong button. :xi-plz:
Only if its aimed at the Global North :xi-pog:
:posadist-nuke:
or barbarism, or extinction
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Isnt it equavilent to the more intense exploitation since it does it by facilitating the more intense exploitation? If so why include it as a separate point?
Also another way to increase the rate of profit is establishment of monopolies
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You're right. I'm familiar with the concept of socially-necessary labor-time, but I was trying to do an ELI5 and unfortunately butchered it a bit in the process. I simply meant that labor has to be necessary to add value.
The point being that, if everything is completely automated everywhere, socially-necessary labor-time to produce anything is zero. No labor to be done, no surplus value to be extracted, no profit.
Gonna edit my post to point out it's the average necessary labor that counts, thanks for pointing it out.
Can't all the capitalists just form a cartel and not actually lower prices and compete with each other?
It's like how they can probably make lightbulbs that last way longer but everyone decided not to. Dubai specially ordered longer lasting ones that can only be sold there.
People can't consume if they're not getting paid, though.
i don't think that's how it really happens, it's just that you as a consumer can't really see too far beyond the price tag, that would require perfect information that you don't really have (except in extreme cases)
programmed obsolescence is not exactly a conscious choice by all capitalists, it's just an expression of how shit the price system becomes after a certain level of productivity - living in a reality of scarcity, you tend to buy whatever is cheaper because you don't really know how much longer a more expensive choice would last, which makes those products more competitive, which, in turn, forces capitalists to make that choice
it's a downward spiral of waste and overconsumption that everyone is basically forced into just because of how capitalism works
No, the lightbulb thing is definitely real, LED lightbulbs should last forever if they're actually ran to spec.
They design the lightbulbs to overheat the LEDs because they send too much power through them and they die. An LED lightbulb should not be hot to touch but they all are because they don't really care.
This is about the Dubai bulbs, and even veritasium did a video on it
The lightbulb conspiracy is the only one I actually believe in capitalists getting in a room to form a cartel for. That and telecom companies in Canada.
Nice and basic, automation and mass-production increases supply, which as you guess makes shit more available which in turn makes it less valuable, which makes the product less profitable, which then drives for more automation to replace expensive workers to cut costs and boost profit, then repeat from the top until the market crashes.
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Labor is the only commodity that can be bought by a capitalist at less than its value, because its not sold by a capitalist. This is the source of all profit from capitalist enterprises. When capitalists replace workers with machines, they pay full value for the machines (can't exploit them) so they stop making profits. Also the workers they laid off no longer have money to buy whatever commodities they're selling.
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Leofits by nature have to fall over time. Eventuall you will sell a toaster to everyone that needs a toaster. If the market opens up enough there will eb competition meaning you make less. Toasters will fall out of fashion. Parts get cheaper because you have made enough toasters to develop an econony fo scale. In a logistical sense the there is only so much money to be made in any one way. That's why they keep releasing new models of stiff. A hundred other ways I am sure. However if the business logic is to do what makes the most money. And it is. The only actions you can isentivize the market to produce are ones liek what we have already seen.
So if biden spends a billion to make a factory, it will just automate and offshore as those are the actions incentivized by the market.
Yeah, but the "solution" they'll inevitably turn to is Fascism.
This is always a good point to bring up with left-leaning folks who are still holding on to the idea that some heavily-regulated form of capitalism might be OK. Even if you manage the gargantuan task of putting even basic limits on capitalism to mitigate its worst effects, those limits are just going to get chipped away again in a few decades at most. Capitalism is corrosive to any restrictions applied to it.
my younger dumbass lib self used to say "capitalism is a raging river and we just have to dam it to make it useful". i guess the analogy while libshit sort of still makes sense if the river is made of sulfuric acid
Dams, things that have historically never collapsed
:wtyp-gang:
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Also, this is like how they've found that expanding roads doesn't actually reduce traffic, because more people drive as a result.
"Surely we can grow our way out of this growth problem!"