Denazification begin
Denazification begin
Nazis or not, this is insanely stupid and counterproductive. And a war crime, of course.
The Ukrainian government has been violating the Minsk agreements for 8 years and splitting hairs about whether or not shelling schools and civilian targets technically counted.
I'm not surprised it's finally boiled over.
I told at least 3 fucking libs this week that if this were 2003 they’d be falling for “WMDs in Iraq,” hook, like, and sinker.
Abso-fucking-lutely. Never forget that Hollywood libs roundly booed Michael Moore when he spoke out against the invasion at an awards show.
The only reason I have any respect for that lib, he had the guts to stand there and tell them the invasion was wrong.
He's a lib, but I have a soft spot for him. Him and Jesse Jackson were the only two prominent people you could even call "leftists" in the US in the 90s. And they both took so much shit for it for two decades until Occupy and Bernie and when being a leftist got much more mainstream. I remember the 90s. As bad as things are for the left movement in the US now, they were worse back then. Moore and Jackson were the only household names sticking their necks out there. They get to be in Purgatorio in my Dante's Inferno of libs.
Correct, but any attack beyond DPR and LPR isn't defensible in my view. This whole thing is the West's fault, but Putin is escalating things in a way that's dangerous and harms innocent people.
Depends how far they go. I could see a scenario where they take out nearby military bases so they can't retaliate after Russians eventually withdraw.
do you think they should leave behind the pro-usa/nato governmentr in kiev which has been shelling people in dpr/lpr
most likely they are going for regime change there
It's possible, but I hope not. A regime change probably requires an occupation, which would make this much worse. They didn't change the regime in Georgia in 2008.
i think the idea is to oust the pro-usa pro-nato government from the coup in 2014 or whatever and install one that is anti-nato
this is more or less expressly what putin said he was going to do
also annex the dpr and lpr most likely ( he didnt say that but it seems to be a pretty good bet)
i think the idea is to oust the pro-usa pro-nato government from the coup in 2014 or whatever and install one that is anti-nato
I mean, I'm not sure he even needs to do that. Ukraine can't ever join NATO now, if it ever could have joined, and it's been proven that NATO will not fire a shot to defend Ukraine. Maidan is dead.
Serbia 2.0, sigh. Truly a dangerous pandora box that opened by the US
There are so many weird Nazi groups involved it's almost comical if it wasn't so sad.
Wagner group, for instance a Russian PMC with high up members heavily invested in pagan and Norse mythology, and lower ranked members with swastika tatoos. I know them for their weird deployments in Africa, but apparently they're heavily involved in Ukraine as well. Then there's the obvious ones like Azov battalion, etc.
It's just Nazis everywhere.
Looks like it, getting Nazis to denazify Nazis is obviously not going to work in any meaningful way.
Wagner was useless in Africa though
The Balkans, but with nukes. Yeah that's pretty horrible.
I'm sure their failure to achieving the objectives set for them by the Russian big bourgeoisie is going to be comforting to the Africans who have to put up with even more horrible foreign PMC warcrimes.
Of course not, I know.
Though actual armies have been deployed to Mozambique for instance, better than PMCs but still very, very bad.
This war is just two different sides of people with swastika tatoos accusing the other side of being either a nazi or secretly controlled by the jews. Although I guess the Ukrainian president being jewish makes the russian nazi argument less about crypto-jews and more just general antisemitism.
I mean the Ukrainian government does allow the official military to wave Nazi inspired Ukraine flags, even if the president is Jewish there is a large amount of Nazism present, that the government enables. Still not the stories Putin says though
Denazification begin
Please none of this. That's a pretext and not likely to be the outcome. Shit is hitting the fan - let's focus on mutual aid and careful analysis.
it’s also literally part of the justification from the russian gov lol
No no no.
Now that military operations have begun, it's time to forget all that shit and Ukrainian white nationalism and the far right coup government that's running the country.
Everyone in Ukraine is a :LIB: Always have been.
i meant that as a bad thing lol, parroting the russian state line is not something you should be doing lol
Russia, Ukraine and NATO are all the bad guys here lol, support the innocent ppl caught in the cross fire, not the imperial states
Further to the right than what? Right-Sector? The UOM-B? The Azov Battalion?
The Ukrainians were doing a MOVE bombing by way of artillery fire in Donetsk and Luhansk on a weekly basis for nearly a decade. At what point can we drop the PCM shit and address what's actually going on out there?
How many seats do they have in Verkhovna Rada?
Less worried about that than their presence in state militias.
Do you want me to list off far right Russian politicians to demonstrate how further to the right it’s government is
I'd like to know what policies you're referring to. Because right now, all I see is a Ukrainian government operating at the behest of far-right social and economic interests attempting to crack down on eastern provinces for the crime of not privatizing fast enough.
Whatever may be said of the modern Russian state politics, Putin's Russian Nationalists aren't willing to carve up the country and sell it piecemeal to foreigners.
Russia has more elected politicians with far right reactionary ideas in the duma
waves around PCM chart
See! There are more dots in the top right square! :very-intelligent:
My only contention is that this war is about “denazification” and as you said “ukranian white nationalism” because it’s the most hypocritical bullshit ever when the russian neo nazi pmc the wagner group exists
The Wagner Group is an international mercenary company.
Incredibly easy to just say "i want no involvment in this conflict", but that's too simple for OP, he had find some way to pick a side in this inter-imperialist conflict.
This is alleged aim of putin, but op could be more sensitive/less trusting of Russia’s aims
The thing is as leftists you'd expect OP, one of us, to know better than to look at these surface claims. It would be wild if someone here took a Jen Psaki press release raving about Democracy in Ukraine at face level no?
sometimes its easy to hear something that sounds good and want it to be true, we all have moments of weakness
https://hexbear.net/post/176319 megathread is here, start herding yourselves into there at a leisurely pace
apparent explosions in Kharkov, Odessa, and Kiev. this is looking like more than just Donbass
https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1496689463761817600
according to a shithead who would have the clearance to know, Russia could be going for the whole thing
The Russian government is currently saying that an occupation is off the table.
Every country that has ever done a border war says this though.
What are they going to do, go to Kiev and round up the Nazis? And then what?
They also said they were going to respect Ukrainian autonomy and then a week later Putin gave a speech where he said Ukraine isn’t real.
Never trust what fucking countries say.
His speech said that the goal was "denazification" and "demilitarization" of Ukraine. The second goal might not require a prolonged occupation and annexation, but it would require control of the top military and civilian leaders for a time. My only hope at this point is that whatever happens, it's short.
I think they probably lift the DPR and LPR off Ukraine and integrate them into Russia but leave the rest as a demilitarized puppet state sort of like Belarus. Occupying and annexing the whole country would be...bold to say the least. Though I suppose I shouldn't discount the possibility after this.
Hard to say. I've only seen in Donbass so far. This lines up with recognizing both of the people's republics.
CNN just posted about power transformers blowing up but then took it down
Tactical strikes already? Yeah it's absolutely horrifying
Depending on how their power grid is run that could be cyber attacks. Overloading in just the right way can cause cascading transformer explosions.
Potentially also cyber-infrastructural attacks - it's something Russia has shown some capacity at in the past.
From Twitter, need to get a firm source: The governments of both Luhansk and Denetsk have agreed with Russia to allow troops form each country to travel into the other.
Okay I'm still learning about this stuff, but one of the takeaways seems to be that Bigger Country recognizing the sovereignty of a breakaway republic seceding from a country on the border of Bigger Country, is how Bigger Country implicitly declares a military alliance with Breakaway Country.
I have exactly zero faith that Russia would not completely fuck this up.
Is this actually a departure from the status quo of the past several years?
Russian military operations in the area are explicit now and likely at a greater scale than before. Though for the people on the ground in Donbass it's probably just a different flavor of precarity.
