- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.ml
Turns out that despite all the both sidesing of the Avoz Battalion (et al.) with this allegedly equally fascist "Wagner Group", it was only ever one guy with connections to mercenaries with no common organizational (let alone ideological) structure.
To clarify, "Wagner" is a catch-all term to refer to all of the members of an informal network of Russian mercenary groups, named after the nickname of one neo-Nazi commander who was active in Ukraine in 2014. He hasn't been seen since 2016, there's no evidence that he founded the entire mercenary network, and there's no evidence that the entire network is ideologically fascist. His name was slapped onto the umbrella term as a way of implying that the network is a singular neo-Nazi paramilitary under his leadership, which is deceptive. Contrast with the fascist credentials of Azov (et al.), which are overwhelming. The purpose of making the comparison between them is to minimize the threat, the role in the war, and the crimes of Azov (et al.), as well as the role the US/NATO plays in supporting them and international fascism more generally. And of course this is all in service of fanning the flames of bloodthirsty Amerikkkan imperialism.
Obviously these mercenaries are still bad, etc. etc., but I figured that was obvious.
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That's not what the article is saying though. The article is saying that "Wagner group" does not exist as a singular entity as it's simply a catch all term for a bunch of private military contractors (PMC's) that are a proxy for the Russian ministry of defence, as PMCs are illegal under Russian law. So there's going to no actual official PMC groups. Thus allowing for Russia to deploy these people in Africa, Syria and Ukraine without actually depolying the Russian military. Even though the two are closely interlinked.
The name Wagner comes from the callisign the lead colonel of one of these PMC groups operating in Ukraine, Dmitry Utkin, who was heavily involved in Spetznaz before going over to Ukraine. This guy is a neo Nazi, and has been photographed with Putin multiple times. However he has not appeared in public for a while, and there's rumours that there are actually two Dimitry Ukins, mudding the waters further.
The article is saying that it's bad to label all these groups as Wagner, as it makes it hard to track who is doing what. Not that the concept of Wagner (unofficial Russian private military contactors with close co operation with the Russian MOD) doesn't exist.
Yes, so in other words there is no explicitly neo-Nazi mercenary company in Russia a la Azov, just a network of mercenaries, one of whom is a Nazi. There is no evidence of any actual fascist paramilitary organization, i.e., the liberal/radlib both sides narrative about fascist military infestation in Ukraine and Russia is false (or at least unsupported by claims about Wagner).
It depends on what you define as both siding. There is fash infiltration in the Russian army and their proxies, even among high ranking members. However, claiming that the Russian military is led by fascist ideology or ideologically commited to fascism would be false and both siding as you said.
Yeah, that's what I mean. These Russian fascist mercenaries aren't given a platform or PR by the state, and are kept at a distance from the formal military, which also keeps them ideologically at a distance. Unlike Azov, they don't seem to have any political power, don't seem to have a social movement behind them (legitimized by the state, like with labeling Bandera a national hero), and haven't threatened to overthrow their government if they don't get their way. They don't get to make tweets about committing war crimes on behalf of the military. Hence my saying it's a false equivalence to equate them to Azov. It's a deflection.
I agree, but my personal opinion on "Wagner" is clouded by my experience with them being deployed in a neighbouring country. They arrived using what I guess is Russian MOD aircraft (I'm no expert, they could have been using their own planes), went into Mozambique, 25% of them left because of the environmental conditions. They refused to work with the Mozambican government after being ambushed by jihadists dressed in fake Mozambique uniforms. This led to them getting beaten badly by jihadists due to all these factors, and left, while the situation had gotten worse.
It seems they've learnt their lessons from Mozambique given their deployments in CAR and Mali, but I still don't want them to come back. The official AU peacekeeping force consisting of mainly South African and Rwandan forces seems to be doing a much better job in Mozambique. I'm still not happy about that, but it's better than what was before.
I mean, yeah, I'm sure they're assholes. Mercenaries are trash. Hope they all choke, etc.
Russia in general has not been good at soft power in Sub Saharan Africa. Or at least not as good as they could have been. For their nuclear power plant deal in South Africa, they decided to carry it out while Jacob Zuma was president, he's a very controversial figure and the face of corruption to many. This sank the deal. Then there's the Mozambican deployment of Wagner, and many other blunders.
They seem to be doing much better in central and west Africa for sure though.
:shocked-pikachu: there's not a single company, but a group of companies owned by the same people?? this changes everything
the 'both sidsing' is literally just pointing out that the antifashist casus belli is probably not honest. it doesn't mean russia fashist, it means they're more motivated by material concern than ideological commitment to something good. which is pretty dang important to qualify because a right-wing capitalist nation can never be seriously ideologically committed to antifascism.
a group of companies owned by the same people??
Are they actually? Is there even any evidence for that?
the ‘both sidsing’ is literally just pointing out that the antifashist casus belli is probably not honest.
No, it is very much used to whitewash NATO, encourage intervention in the war, and encourage volunteers to sign up to fight side-by-side with Azov. It's used to diminish the role US imperialism played in this war by diminishing the effects of the US-backed Euromaidan coup. It's used to diminish the racist violence the empowered Ukrainian fascists are directing against nonwhite immigrants and residents, and against the Russian-speaking population. It's used to draw attention away from the far-right connections of Western governments and politicians.
It's quintessential liberal both-sidesing.
a network of businesses and groups of mercenaries that have been linked by overlaps in ownership and logistics networks
here, on a leftist forum we need to understand principled antifascism vs. opportunist posturing. if they're whinging about wagner on msnbc or something i could see where you're coming from but i got the sense you were complaining about people here :vivian-shrug:
No, I'm complaining about the people everywhere else on the internet who reflexively bring up Wagner whenever anyone mentions Azov. This place is a refuge.
Did you do anything other then read the title? or was the plan for everyone to give up and take your word for it once the ads got too annoying?
Well as long as they’re not recruiting their mercenary death squads along ideological lines that’s cool then. Phew, was worried there
I mean they're probably recruiting white nationalists from inside Russia itself, but definitely not the kind of foreign recruiting Azov is doing, getting Rhodesian supporters and American neo nazis to come fight in Ukraine
The purpose of "Wagner" is a bunch of proxy groups that Russia can use to deploy troops without offically deploying the actual army. Foreign recruitment would be counter intuitive for stuff like that.
Right exactly. Just because the organization is non-ideological doesn’t mean the membership is. Capitalists love employing the fascist right to do their dirty work even if they themselves aren’t committed to the same political projects. So the mercenaries of the Wagner group can be everyone under the sun, but they’re still mercenaries used to enforce capitalist-imperialist goals
Just because the organization is non-ideological doesn’t mean the membership is.
But that's the primary significance of the Nazi branches of the military in Ukraine. They have a consistent ideological project and political indoctrination program, and they've infested the military, police, and government. They're literally given a platform by state media. I gaurantee you basically every military in the West has some individual Nazis in it (not that this is a defense of them), but there's clearly a categorical distinction between that and ideologically fascist organizations being formally integrated into the state. Azov wield political power, whereas these scattered Russian fascist mercenaries are just grunts. They're still a matter of concern, obviously, but there's a false equivalence being made by liberals as part of their defense of NATO.
Right, there is an actual fascist political project underway in Ukraine as the nationalist reaction foments in the face of worsening material conditions. My point though is that Russia is in the same circumstances as Ukraine ideologically wherein the nationalistic fash elements are there to come into existence in reaction to the material conditions as they develop. Fascism will always grow out of a failing liberal state, its liberalism's natural conclusion in the face of crisis. So to say that people shouldn't be making a false equivalence between Azov and Wagner because it hides NATO's support of explicitly fascist elements is completely fair, but to hand wave away Russia's willingness to utilize fascist elements to their own ends ignores the reality that Russia is only a cratered economy away from having an Azov equivalent developing within their own borders. They're not afraid to do business with Nazis when it's convenient which is why they'll empower the Nazis when the moment necessitates it
Ignoring the gross misrepresentation of the article, The Wagner Group's network of mercenary/paramilitary groups include several explicitly fascist ones and the network's founder Dmitry Utkin is literally a Nazi, with SS tattoos and all. I have a feeling OP doesn't care though.
I'd like to hear about these misrepresentations, but I don't think that directly contradicts anything in the article or in HumanMeat's summary
but I don’t think that directly contradicts anything in the article or in HumanMeat’s summary
That user name is so weird lmao. Just look at this sentence! Only here on Hecker hecken hexbear
I think a more useful analysis would compare the scale of operations. Whether the "Wagner group" is centralized as an org or uses multiple names and fronts has some meaning, but the biggest picture requires knowing the scale at which it coordinates real fascist operations and recruitment. I would personally expect it to be less than groups like Azov et al, which enjoy explicit government backing and long-term engagements on front lines and recruitment, but I can't tell you this for certain.
Just to be clear what this article is saying with my "They Live" glasses on:
According to the US treasury, "investigators," "journalists," and Mikhail Khordokovsky's London-based outfit, there is a restaurateur with no military background who admittedly probably benefits from a corrupt relationship with Putin, does a lot of catering for the MOD etc., and is also thought to be the funding middleman for both a shady network of mercenaries who have done some pretty atrocious stuff, the "pro-Trump" troll farm, and action movies that portray Russian interventions in a positive light.
There was also a Russian intelligence officer who fought in the Donbass and was last seen in public in 2016 who "is alleged" to be enamored with Nazi Germany and in particular the composer Wagner.
