the people who "look down on the West" have increased to 41.7 percent
Opinions of the US have definitely gone down quite a bit with Gen z around the world. Europe, on the other hand, still has a mostly positive image. I don't think the Global South should look down on the West as much as they should stop blindly worshipping them and copying everything they do.
Edit: I meant to say Europe has a positive image with those from the Global South. I was one of them for the longest time. Hated the US for its explicit war-mongering and saw Europe as the more peaceful alternative to what the US was. They have great PR and it's even more impressive that they're able to do it without the media apparatus that the US has.
European Gen Z has a positive image of the US? Huh. I guess even in my wider social media like TikTok and :reddit-logo: I’m still in a bubble, because I don’t think I’ve ever seen a European say anything positive about the US.
It’s usually “How do you feel safe going anywhere when you could get shot?”“You pay how much for an ambulance???” Or just saying that Americans are fat lazy and dumb. “At least our schools aren’t a shooting range” and stuff like that. I figured most of the population of Europe would be happy to see the United States nuked to oblivion.
European Gen Z has a positive image of the US? Huh.
I think they mean that Europe is still perceived positively around the world, unlike USA
Ooooh yes I see, I can’t read. Yeah that’s definitely true. I think Europe has done a really good job since world war 2 of letting the US take the heat for all the stuff they’re complicit in, even though Europeans actually benefit more than Americans do from imperialism (if global wealth were split evenly the average American would be wealthier, unlike most of Europe)
I mean to say that Central American Gen Z thinks highly of Europe. But now that I think about it, Europeans do seem to be more Americanized. I've seen them speak in American accents from watching so much Youtube and calling their own currency "dollars." They also seem to know way more about American culture war stuff than we do.
Videos of the riots went everywhere on Chinese social media. And the top comments all said the same thing: "This is what we were admiring the whole time? This would never happen here." with 2433 replies saying "you said it!"
Yes, critizing the surely very deeply researched view of "they aren't allowed to talk about 1989" is equivalent to thinking China is a perfect utopia.
You know what, maybe I am being reactionary on this. I have just never seen a good source that shows that people in the PRC can't talk about 1989 Tiananmen square stuff online. I would be open to reading if you have something. I would still say, I dont know how it related to them talking about riots in the US in 2020. Them saying there are never riots isn't way out there if the last big one was over 30 years ago.
It is hard to find sources that aren't western-biased, but it seems like Weibo and other platforms do filter out keywords related to the event.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/06/30-years-tiananmen-square-state-chinese-censorship-and-digital-surveillance
All it would take to prove me wrong is to show me Chinese social media talking about the event.
chauvinist
a person displaying aggressive or exaggerated patriotism.
Sounds like u
Looking it up in the dictionary to try to own someone and still getting it wrong, lol.
I'd be happy to teach you the meaning if you'd have even the slightest bit of humility rather than acting like a baby with some pitiful :reddit-logo:-tier trolling.
My own advice to do what? I'm not throwing a tantrum whenever people contradict me.
You seem to think that you're trolling, but I feel great and cool. It's unfortunate that you behave like a child in our space, particularly to avoid doing basic self-crit.
I hope you can become a comrade in the future, but for now you are just a lib eating up capitalist propaganda and throwing tantrums when corrected.
You're telking yourself more lies to avoid self-crit and hiding behind trolling to avoid the substance I've provided. Your actions disprove your baby rhetoric.
There's a reason everyone told you to go back to :reddit-logo:. You're acting like a lib that can't do self-crit about their reactionary positions. We've all seen and experienced it, this is a life raft from a subreddit lol.
I hope you can someday learn how to engage rather than hide behind pretenses of trolling and deflection.
The criticisms of your behavior that you deflect and the fact that you're spreading Western chauvinism from clearly uncritically-accepted capitalist propaganda. You've clearly never even spoken to a Chinese person nor attempted to investigate this topic, but were happy to wade into this space of comrades that do both and start flinging shit and throwing tantrums when people try to engage with you.
For example, rather than actually engage with my in no way unique accusation that you're being chauvinist, you tried to look the term to in the dictionary to "own me", lol. I offered to explain it to you if you'd stop acting in bad faith, but alas you've doubled down on pretending that you're trolling me. Let me reiterate: I feel great. The only negative emotion I feel about this interaction is pity that you think you're a comrade and are very active here, yet act like this when confronted.
Fighting the capitalists isn't just memes and sarcasm, you have to shut the fuck up about shit you've never learned and go learn it or ask questions when people make themselves resources for you if you want to contribute. Otherwise, you will simply be disruptive and push us in liberal and reactionary directions and it would be better if you were not here. That behavior would be helpful to us if you brought it to some liberal party.
I’ve read all the resources other people have provided (you still haven’t provided anything).
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I don't believe you, at least you certainly only demonstrated ignorance and attempts at deflection when responding to others providing you with sources. Maybe you decided to read them later, maybe you skimmed them to see how to confirm your biases. But it's painfully obvious that you've never spoken to a Chinese person and aren't comprehending the condescension towards every Chinese person that you're spreading in ignorance.
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I personally prefer to not offer resources to people acting in bad faith. They, like you, are actually in a mode of thinking that's about having a fight and "winning" rather than actually learning anything or building a shared understaffing, which is exemplified by your deflections and attempts at trolling every person who's tried to help you. Like you said, others already tried that and it obviously didn't work. You weren't receptive.
This is a good summary of the behavior: https://hexbear.net/post/206695/comment/2608679. I would further summarize it as flinging shit in ignorance and then demanding everyone disprove you, then acting like a baby when they try to meet your ridiculous expectations.
It’s not chauvinism to state facts like unarmed civilians were shot
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You've already proven that you don't know what chauvinism is in this context, so this is an interesting and indirect form of lying. You don't know what I was saying, so you wouldn't be able to tell me whether this counts. You're not going to be able to critically engage with this topic until you stop treating it like a reddit fight.
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Civilians were shot, though calling them "unarmed civilians" creates a misleading context, as we generally don't know what activities they were engaged in during the fighting, mostly in side streets. A teenager just walking home with groceries and someone part of a lynch mob can both be unarmed civilians, and both were present.
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The only extent to which you've previously engaged on this claim, so far as I can tell, is with some garbage articles that can't even get basic facts right.
My verdict: this actually seems pretty in line with chauvinism, actually.
or China censors sensitive topics like what happened in 1989
Ah, how the goal posts move. Now it's just whether China has censorship regarding topics like this? Fucking lol. That's a far cry from your chauvinist pretense that Chinese people aren't allowed to talk about it, holy shit.
I’d much rather see US hegemony fall and China take the lead. You are just kneejerk reacting, making assumptions about me.
I'm correctly describing your bad faith behavior and recognizing, as others have, that it's some:reddit-logo: brain shit.
So was this your idea of demonstrating good faith or...?
Ah, and you've yet again avoided engaging with what I said to just be dismissive, lol. I quote you and engage at length with explanations and your brain goes, "hey fuck you why are you contradicting me?"
I've actually said what I want very clearly, it's in those comments above that you've ignored and deflected.
Do you see why I am not convinced by a self-defense / attempt to say where we have common ground? You haven't even recognized that you've been deflecting, trying to troll, trying to shift burdens, generally just acting like this is a fight you need to win rather than engage in any self-crit.
I can give you two examples of what it would look like to demonstrate good faith:
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Do the actual self-crit of recognizing these shitty behaviors that many folks have pointed out. Self-evident behaviors you've avoided recognizing by doubling down on them. Saying that you're actually a good critical supporter who gets called tankie is saying, "I'm an ally, actually" even though I've already told you why your behavior means you're not a comrade. Something else you deflected, by the way.
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Return to the topics from which you deflected and attempt to really engage. I think you made a struggle to do this by asking me what "my" definition of chauvinism was, but it was asked condescendingly so fuck man, what do you expect?
I'm describing the shit you did and things we've all seen among internet libs. If you do anything irl, I hope you don't act like this, and I hope you can do the self-crit needed to avoid this form of liberalism, which is fundamentally grounded in egos.
I talk to libs of all stripes all the time. Had one condescendingly tell me all about how "we have to protect Ukraine" last week, lol. I'm also talking to one right now.
Let me know when you're ready to stop posting your Ls and can actually engage with us.
“Talk to” aka name-called and condescended.
I've been very patient with you, actually, and have explained at length what is wrong with your behavior. Most people won't do this for you and will just cringe and move on.
Anyways, name-calling: yeah duh. What do you do with ignorant trolls that act like a baby when they get called out?
Condescending: sure why not I mean if I'm telling you what's what and that you're being shitty I'm sure there's some way that counts at condescension, but get a grip. Do I need to remind you how you acted towards several comrades around here?
Yeah you’re a real good talker. I bet you win over lots of allies.
Yes I recruit and radicalize people all the time, actually. Why do you think I'm going zero tolerance on you? Your behavior is what turns people away, I have to fight this egocentric liberalism all the time in orgs.
Yes you say many dumb things to avoid dealing with what I - and others - say to you. Constantly trying to rationalize away the criticisms, deflect, throw them back even when they don't make sense. Like I said before - it's like arguing with a little kid.
You will need to deal with this someday if you're ever going to actually help out irl.
"Fruitlessly" is a great self-own though, thanks for that.
Proud of you, kid. Completely detaching from reality to avoid doing self-crit.
You mean replying to you? If you want to say you're a lost cause to right ahead.
This reminds me of when I used to try to convince young earth creationists of basic contradictions and they'd cover their insecurity with trolling. In the end they'd frequently try to act like even paying attention to them in any way was actually getting owned, lol.
Unhealthy, cowardly, and in any left space, purely counterproductive.
Irl, most people acting like you would've shut the fuck up after a few people called them out. The time to convince such a person would be afterwards in a private conversation where you acknowledge where they're coming from, explain where others are coming from, smile and commiserate, and give some advice.
This is a commie internet forum and you're incredibly defensive to the point of trolling. I have no expectation of convincing your, but maybe someday the cognitive dissonance will be enough that you'll do the self-crit that we need you to do.
The truth comes out. You just want to bully me into stfu.
If I wanted that I'd ignore you lol. You already shut up in the rest of the thread. Everybody gave up on you.
You might want to read what I said again.
I told you where I’m coming from. You kept frothing.
Yes I responded to that and you avoided what I said for what's probably the 30th time now. Deflecting from a topic only to return to it to claim a victory is also not new or interesting behavior from someone going down your path.
You want purity and simplicity instead critical thinking.
I'm not the one shying away from criticism here, lol. And who knows what you're talking about with "purity".
Maybe you’re just not bright enough to see what you’re actually doing.
Mmhmm
For you to do self-crit or stop disrupting our spaces with ignorant chauvinist shit.
I have low expectations, but am also very patient.
You're telling yourself little stories again, inventing an absurd fiction with no resemblance to reality. You're also continuing that little baby habit of parroting my accusations regardless of how little sense it makes. I've responded to you at length and specifically to nearly everything you've said while you played at trolling and avoided what I said.
You are still doing it. Right now.
Nope, I enjoy productive good faith disagreements. It's a good way to learn, spread knowledge, and create new forms of solidarity.
I reject your in-no-way-original shenanigans, which aren't exclusively about the chauvinist shit you tried to stir in particular, but revolve around your approach to disagreement among people you'd like to think are your allies. I'm not exactly alone in recognizing this behavior and you've never acknowledged even the accusation once. What you've done instead is prove it true by deflecting or ignoring the accusation itself, lol. Digging hole after rhetorical hole for yourself with no chance to ever find a coherent way out except more and more self-crit.
You're really making things hard on yourself.
ignoring what accusation, that i’m a reddit lib?
That you're acting in bad faith. That's one of the versions, sure.
what else am i supposed to do with that drivel?
Engage with it and ask what people are talking about if you don't understand. Do you think your childish response is and was the only option? lol
A shrill mix of baby and parrot noises is heard on the side threads of hexbear dot net.
Their message: "I'll never self-crit"
I've already answered that question.
If you'd like to end this conversation, you can go right ahead. Just use your words.
Yes, I've had to repeat myself a lot. Like I said, I'm very patient.
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No, you offered defenses of yourself that, I would guess, you think of as establishing common ground. That doesn't make me feel like you'll react in good faith, believe it or not.
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My condition was that you demonstrate good faith first. But I'll still help a little anyways: it's not my definition. We're in a socialist space, a commie space, full of ancoms and Marxists. There is a very long history of how this term is used in those movements and here.
How will you be demonstrating good faith?
I think US hegemony is by far much worse than China. I think the world would be much better with China taking a lead role, providing better alternatives like better financing(the debt trap stuff is a myth that really applies to the IMF) and the BRI. China has the best chance of spreading socialism around the world and progressing us toward communism.
That doesn't mean we have to turn of the critical part of our brains and act like there are never mistakes. I don't bad mouth China in liberal spaces like Reddit. In fact, they often call me a tankie on Reddit.
Is this your example of demonstrating good faith? Maybe I should be clearer: the impetus that made you deflect and pretend at trolling is the bad faith. The flinging of shit and then expecting everyone to correct you otherwise they are good targets of criticism is the bad faith. Are you going to stop doing that, and why should I believe you? Not being a consistent sinophobe or declaring critical support doesn't really address my concern. I have no faith that when I start explaining, you'll engage rather than dismiss and troll and deflect. You have to establish the trust that you've broken in this space. That is the lesson I think you need to learn the most.
You have severe reddit brain if you think the Chinese dont know or arent able to talk about it. They are also rightfully on the side that despite excessive violence taking place the outcome of not allowing it to become a larger color revolution was the correct call.
Oh no chinese liberals arent allowed to post supportive things over a failed color revolution that the entire west is pushing as a propaganda point against the CPC who cares
Ok but can you post about it or do keywords related to the event get filtered?
Searches for it are generally heavily filtered within sites themselves, likely intended to prevent research into the topic. But if you use the right direct searches with external sites you can find a few posts.
Translate them and ctrl+f "june".
https://weibo.com/ttarticle/p/show?id=2309404733545863316151
https://www.weibo.com/p/1001603887012728970212?pids=Pl_Official_CardMixFeedv6__4&feed_filter=2
https://weibo.com/3050810200/KuiNd0ssi
https://weibo.com/ttarticle/p/show?id=2309404104018484941275
Is there filtering that posts mentioning it go through first? Maybe? Impossible to verify without first hand good-faith use of the services as a regular user. Most social media sites are probably very harsh with new accounts that exhibit any unusual behaviour just like reddit and facebook are so verification is probably difficult, in particular because their services will be on the lookout for any would-be CIA attempts to set up networks of accounts to manipulate social media like they did on Twitter against Cuba last year.
Could we be having this conversation on a Hexbear based in China? I just want a straight answer. Y'all seem to be dodging and making excuses.
That's not at all what I'm talking about. Just show me Chinese social media posts mentioning the event. Should be easy if you say it's 100%.
Like if one guys says, "we never have riots like that here." Then, someone else replies, "well not since 1989."
well i would guess that wont get banned most likely. If someone makes some post on weibo on "lets talk about the Tianamen square protests and their suppression" or posts a "man stands in front of tank in Tiananmen square 1989 " that will get deleted i would guess or even more so mass reported from the Chinese people themselves that see how extremely much that topic is used as a propaganda tool in the west as opposed to how much indiferent and settled it is in Chinese people minds so they will see it as an attempt to create chaos and sow discord. But still i dont really know , im not Chinese and im not deep in chinese social media . They might meme about it on We Chat all the time and i wouldnt know
and even still it doesnt register in peoples mind as something remotely equivalent as American Protests of millions overall split in every big city. They are a 1.5 billion people nation and it was a riot-protest of a much smaller scale mainly in one city 40 years ago. It probably wouldnt cross their mind when typing "riots like this dont happen here when reaction to the US unrest and social instability and chaos.
Because nothing happened in 1989 other than pro western protestors killing the Chinese army personnel
Come on man. Yes there was a western color revolution contingent. But more stuff happened then that. Did the protestors just give up and go home after killing a couple soldiers? How were they dispersed.
Critical support means you have to be critical. (edit: I should say think critically)
Chinese people know protestors died and even if they dont love that they generaly judge that the suppression was the correct call especially after dozens of PLA soldiers got murked mot just a couple. Yeah a couple hundreds of protestors,armed by that point, died as well , chinese people know that . So whats the issue and what is to be critical off? That China doesnt allow public posts celebrating or siding with the color revolution or that Chinese people simply dont care 1/10th as much as redditors ?
Can you bring it up online in China even if you side against the color revolution? Does that pan with "riots never happen here."
The issue is simply that keywords related to the event are filtered automatically. Like I'm not even saying it's 100% bad necessarily, just quipping how their censorship works. I can see why you all have a kneejerk reaction tho, considering the western media campaign against China.
Where are you reading about the protestors getting disposed? Why are you supporting western propaganda?
https://archives.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_myth_of_tiananmen.php
More lib friendly source for you:
https://www.smh.com.au/national/liu-xiaobo-chinese-dissident-persuaded-student-protesters-to-leave-tiananmen-square-20170714-gxb3g9.html
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/g36621881/tiananmen-square-massacre-photos/?slide=10
http://www.cnd.org/June4th/massacre.html
These are both faulty sources in the first place as they both claim a massacre occurred in the square itself when no such thing happened. The deaths that occurred were in battles in numerous different side streets where skirmishes occurred several miles apart.
A couple deaths did occur in the square -- unarmed officers sent to negotiate who were hung by protesters and burned alive. CW extreme images - https://i.imgur.com/mctpk8M.png https://i.imgur.com/mRkv7e4.png
You know it's funny when he says that we are sidestepping on answering whether people in China are allowed to talk about it or not when
- He assumed they aren't
- His whole argument is that they aren't better for criticizing the US which is weird to defend
- He didn't bother reading what I posted
- He already assumed that a massacre happened which he would know more about if he had bothered to read what I linked. From now on, I am not going to engage with bad faith redditors and simply call them western crackers.
I did read what you posted, and I showed you photos of shot civilians. I never asserted that I'm only talking about what happened in the square, I never even said "massacre."
If they are allowed to talk about it on social media than show me examples.
I know that. Why are moving the goalposts to the square itself? Y'all are too defensive.
I just picked those sites for the photos.
How were they dispersed.
PLA soldiers turned off the lights, entered the square, turned on the lights, and then told everyone they were acceding to demands and request that they leave the square immediately. The protestors left while singing The Internationale and waving red flags, holding up pictures of Mao.
Why are all these civilians ducking for cover? Did this man's brain explode from singing the Internationale? https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/g36621881/tiananmen-square-massacre-photos/?slide=10
You say you believe it was a color revolution yet you are acting contrary to that supposed belief. :soviet-hmm:
No nuance allowed huh. With us or against us. Gotta pretend like nobody got shot.
Ah yes the nuance of blindly repeating Western chauvinist propaganda and deflecting whenever someone corrects you.
Back to :reddit-logo:, lib.
There are photographs. What "corrections" am I deflecting? You are being blindly chauvinist.
If I were being as blindly chauvinist as you, I'd be like, "the US did everything correctly at Kent State. The students left Kent State holding hands and singing Kumbaya and no one was shot."
Perfect example of deflection, lib. Just parroting the accusation of chauvinism like you're a little kid. Doesn't matter how little sense it makes, gotta throw something back, right? God forbid you listen to anyone.
You're still just parroting, now with "childish" because I said that the parroting was a thing little kids do. They do it when they are frustrated but have nothing to say in response. But it's very funny that you couldn't stop doing it even in this response.
Take a step back and ask yourself whether this trolling shit is working for you. You bought into some liberal bullshit, this time on China. It happens to everyone, we're all libs. The problem is that rather than engage with others in good faith you're throwing a tantrum.
I said it was PARTLY a color revolution. There were many groups there for different reasons. Like people opposed to liberalization of the markets, and economic strife that could hurt a lot of Chinese people.
also the tiananmen square riot is public knowledge in china idk what the hell you r even going on about lmfao :PIGPOOPBALLS:
americans only ever learned about Tulsa from a SUPERHERO TV SHOW :hahaha:
Sure, they know what happened. The view is that the Party protected them from dangerous radicals who had no idea what they were going to do after their revolution. How were they planning on housing, clothing, caring for a billion people? None of them thought that far ahead.
Moreover they were just students, in Beijing. If you know anything about China you know that what happens in Beijing has nothing to do with the rest of China. It's like when that cop in Hong Kong shot several protesters, his commands to them before opening fire are so popular that they're on T-shirts and internet stickers.
I know all that already. My only point was that there aren't "never riots," and they can't bring that up online. On the whole, some censorship and repression is worth the better quality of life for Chinese people, I think.
what if instead of 'looking down' or 'looking up' it was 'give the west aid and guidance'?
my brothers in marx open a goddamn International Lenin School (or Mao if that fits better)
