Roger Waters is very dumb but dumb people tend to like him because he says some things they like. So what happens when he 'debates' an even dumber liberal on...
Roger Waters - Comfortably Numb, Bad Empanada - Confident and Dumb
it is a short hand for being sectarian against maoists mzt hoxhaists and anti revisonists left comma anarchists specifically it is used specifically for those tendencies when people say it,
I'm confused. Are we using this to refer specifically to Deng-era ideology and up to before Xi? The way I see it discussed, Xi is held in high regard mainly as a leader and XJT is seen as a relatively small addition to MZT overall, and the only people who would claim to be MZT but specifically not XJT are weird imperial periphery neoliberals who I know exist in China but I have literally never seen in one of these online spaces.
I’m am talking about the current party, do you not know there are multiple factions in it… there are people you want to not take the course of Xi and revert to Mao era policies, it’s not just a consensus, there’s like 10 factions …
As far as I know, people concerned with implementing Mao era policies would be more accurately described as Maoists, since MZT would be more accurately described as accounting for Mao's theoretical contributions and a small portion of his policies but not really the bulk of them (and also a bit of a patina for Deng's right-deviation).
MLM groups identified as MZT before Gonzalo, it probably has more than one definition, I meant in the maoist way, but some people mean only MLM when they say maoists, it's confusing
I mean in some cases maybe, but maoists don’t exactly have the best track record and could probably do with some critiquing.
Mzt is generally pretty popular here so it’s definitely not that
And honestly calling everyone that doesn’t follow a prescribed ultra doctrine “revisionist” (i.e. actually responding to the material conditions which is a fundamental part of Marxism) and yourself anti-revisionist is kinda sectarian in itself lol
I for one have never called anyone here or anyone else not here a revionist or tankie or whatever other dunk/own, or even wanted to, it’s really not that hard
Again I don’t think tolerating anti-aes and chauvinist views is worth the moral superiority of being “anti-sectarian” this is basically the tolerance paradox for socialists. All the solidarity to socialists of all stripes but I don’t think allowing chauvinist elements into the broad left is good and they should be critiqued and spoken out against
You have to agree with the premise it was chauvinist, and that is for sure up for debate, unless you’re the authority on what is chauvinist, if the other posters above decided on that this would literally just be GZD
Yeah I believe this is what the kids call “having a take.” Chauvinism in general is complicated subject and obviously there’s gonna be different pov. Chasing some kind of universal agreeance is fruitless and kinda lib tbh and gutless fence sitting. Generally it’s taken to mean supporting western imperialist nations bc of taking their view on something as the default. And that is generally to me, not worth allowing in the space.
We can have a lot of arguments about whether you and I are correct but that we can debate it doesn’t justify tolerating it. We can debate all kinds of shit that we generally take to be bad. Should we allow pro-landlord takes here bc whether it’s bad or good is “up for debate”? Certainly you and I aren’t the arbiter of what is universally true in any circumstance.
I agree, I just think tossing arounds ultras to people the left of you you don’t like is just as childish and dumb as libs throwing around tankies to people to the left of them they don’t like and should be pushed back on
I think there’s a lot of supposition in whether or not that counts as “to the left of you.” If you end up supporting imperialist nations against aes idk how “left” that really is and I think that’s why it worthy of critique
That said I mean we’re gonna call them something right? Like whatever we name them is gonna be interpreted as a pejorative when we consistently use it to critique them. You could be having this exact convo with me but change out the word for chauvinist for example. I really don’t see the point in running so much defense for a group especially if you agree that chauvinist takes are bad.
People are to the left and right of each other and that's okay most people would agree left to right mao, xi, deng and that would not cause debate so why would people using a word to make fun of someone who prefers mao politics over xi politics not punching left ...
there really isn't a debate that using the word ultra would be targeting someone to the left of you, leftism does not automatically equate to good or practical or whatever ascribed values, but it is still more to the left
you do not have not support imperialist nations, by not critically supporting x country, you can firmly oppose western invention and imperialism and don't have to give props to a state that is in many other ways abhorrent ...
it is a short hand for being sectarian against maoists mzt hoxhaists and anti revisonists left comma anarchists specifically it is used specifically for those tendencies when people say it,
Not at all. The PRC is (or claims to be, since you might contest it) MZT.
I meant mzt as in the ideology in the Cpc you can call traditional marxists as opposed to innovative marxism or XJP thought
I'm confused. Are we using this to refer specifically to Deng-era ideology and up to before Xi? The way I see it discussed, Xi is held in high regard mainly as a leader and XJT is seen as a relatively small addition to MZT overall, and the only people who would claim to be MZT but specifically not XJT are weird imperial periphery neoliberals who I know exist in China but I have literally never seen in one of these online spaces.
I’m am talking about the current party, do you not know there are multiple factions in it… there are people you want to not take the course of Xi and revert to Mao era policies, it’s not just a consensus, there’s like 10 factions …
As far as I know, people concerned with implementing Mao era policies would be more accurately described as Maoists, since MZT would be more accurately described as accounting for Mao's theoretical contributions and a small portion of his policies but not really the bulk of them (and also a bit of a patina for Deng's right-deviation).
MLM groups identified as MZT before Gonzalo, it probably has more than one definition, I meant in the maoist way, but some people mean only MLM when they say maoists, it's confusing
Alright, fair enough
I mean in some cases maybe, but maoists don’t exactly have the best track record and could probably do with some critiquing.
Mzt is generally pretty popular here so it’s definitely not that
And honestly calling everyone that doesn’t follow a prescribed ultra doctrine “revisionist” (i.e. actually responding to the material conditions which is a fundamental part of Marxism) and yourself anti-revisionist is kinda sectarian in itself lol
I for one have never called anyone here or anyone else not here a revionist or tankie or whatever other dunk/own, or even wanted to, it’s really not that hard
Again I don’t think tolerating anti-aes and chauvinist views is worth the moral superiority of being “anti-sectarian” this is basically the tolerance paradox for socialists. All the solidarity to socialists of all stripes but I don’t think allowing chauvinist elements into the broad left is good and they should be critiqued and spoken out against
You have to agree with the premise it was chauvinist, and that is for sure up for debate, unless you’re the authority on what is chauvinist, if the other posters above decided on that this would literally just be GZD
didn’t critically support chauvinist
didn’t call China socialist chauvinist
etc etc
Yeah I believe this is what the kids call “having a take.” Chauvinism in general is complicated subject and obviously there’s gonna be different pov. Chasing some kind of universal agreeance is fruitless and kinda lib tbh and gutless fence sitting. Generally it’s taken to mean supporting western imperialist nations bc of taking their view on something as the default. And that is generally to me, not worth allowing in the space.
We can have a lot of arguments about whether you and I are correct but that we can debate it doesn’t justify tolerating it. We can debate all kinds of shit that we generally take to be bad. Should we allow pro-landlord takes here bc whether it’s bad or good is “up for debate”? Certainly you and I aren’t the arbiter of what is universally true in any circumstance.
I agree, I just think tossing arounds ultras to people the left of you you don’t like is just as childish and dumb as libs throwing around tankies to people to the left of them they don’t like and should be pushed back on
I think there’s a lot of supposition in whether or not that counts as “to the left of you.” If you end up supporting imperialist nations against aes idk how “left” that really is and I think that’s why it worthy of critique
That said I mean we’re gonna call them something right? Like whatever we name them is gonna be interpreted as a pejorative when we consistently use it to critique them. You could be having this exact convo with me but change out the word for chauvinist for example. I really don’t see the point in running so much defense for a group especially if you agree that chauvinist takes are bad.
People are to the left and right of each other and that's okay most people would agree left to right mao, xi, deng and that would not cause debate so why would people using a word to make fun of someone who prefers mao politics over xi politics not punching left ... there really isn't a debate that using the word ultra would be targeting someone to the left of you, leftism does not automatically equate to good or practical or whatever ascribed values, but it is still more to the left
you do not have not support imperialist nations, by not critically supporting x country, you can firmly oppose western invention and imperialism and don't have to give props to a state that is in many other ways abhorrent ...