You do know that they are attempting a bourgeois and reactionary break away from China and into the welcoming arms of global capitalism?
The rightist leaders want more slaves. More money. More blood. Bourgeois parliamentarianism. This isn’t about reform, or democracy - it’s a rightist autonomy movement, how could it be?
I’m very confused. There is autonomy, and it divides into two - left and right. How could you think that this “revolution” is a good thing for the left?
China has a large, tremendous position within the nightmare of global capitalism. Anyone can look at the planetary balance sheet and confirm this. Yet, China is still “socialist”, in the sense that there is socialism in the hearts and minds of the masses and leadership. This is clear. The Chinese state is acting, generally, in the interests of the masses.
Comrade, I have a feeling that there are major contradictions that you have not resolved with regards to China, and your own position within global capitalism. It is not enough to simply say all states are bad and then, in contradiction, creating new ones without doing a full class study. This cannot be leftism.
We all sympathize with Hong Kong’s protestors, who are of course real people, more than we do the Chinese state.
However - the rightist leaders do not have the authentic support of the masses. Their movement is tainted by the influence of imperialism. Because of this, they cannot be successful. They cannot bring any “national liberation”. Did the CIA amplify Hong Kong? Of course they did.
If the autonomy movement was left, or becomes left, then of course all of this changes.
Can't I critically support Hong Kongers in their desire for independence, while also criticizing the parts of their attempt that I find less than ideal? I understand that on the whole the Hong Kong protests aren't revolutionary, but I don't see how keeping their current, undemocratic system helps to further leftist goals. Like, China has the power to change the Hong Kong system to be more democratic, right? So why haven't they done that, and how does keeping Hong Kong undemocratic further socialist goals?
80% of Hong Kong does not want independence from China. They are Chinese. You are supporting a colonization project led by the UK & the US. Stop talking.
It’s comparable in that the desire for independence among all three groups isn’t by default a good thing.
Sure, no movement is inherently a good thing. But then all independence movements are comparable to the CSA/fascists. That doesn't seem like a very useful comparison.
Can’t I critically support Hong Kongers in their desire for independence, while also criticizing the parts of their attempt that I find less than ideal?
No. That makes you a useful CIA tool. I'm sorry if that's blunt or sounds mean but if you propagate their lies, if you attack their enemies and support their agenda and efforts they don't care a whit nor does it matter to the impressionable liberal a whit if you sign your support with an asterisk and several paragraphs of short-comings beneath it. Because you've picked a side, theirs and everything after that point will be ignored by liberals. It doesn't make you a reasonable centrist or enlightened person to accept the western propaganda's aim but compromise by rejecting specific points.
Why not critically support China while criticizing the parts you find less than ideal? I always find this interesting and it is a result of indoctrination and latent anti-communism, western chauvinism, and internalized capitalist propaganda, that your left-liberal will nod in agreement at the crimes of the US, at the fact the Democrats abet these horrible crimes and yet when the time for support comes they'll refuse support to socialist nations on the grounds the capitalist media told them they were committing atrocities and that they believe them. Yet many of them will still critically support the US, the Democrats, the efforts of the CIA which they acknowledge as less than perfect in an incredible show of charity to the CIA, to capitalist interests, to US hegemony and allies to it, that is strangely not extended to socialist nations that are less than perfect.
Also most Hong Kongers do not want independence[1] nor should they get it were they brainwashed enough to. Hong Kong is not an ethnic group, it is not a native or indigenous group of people put upon by colonizing forces. It is a colonial wound full of Han Chinese people left by the British after the century of humiliation, it should have been fully repatriated to China but the Chinese being overly reasonable and not in any position to wage a full war with western powers offered concessions, that it would be independent. The West by sewing anti-communist, anti-China propaganda there broke that bargain, the west by sponsoring a color revolution attempt broke that bargain. They teach their school children terrible lies about China in their curriculum. Hong Kong is Chinese land, now and forever. It cannot and will not be split off by western powers into a toe hold once more which is the whole point.
Like, China has the power to change the Hong Kong system to be more democratic, right?
De facto? Yes. They could roll the PLA tanks in tomorrow and the world would sob but no one could stop them nor would anyone mobilize any force to do so. But China abides by its treaties and laws or tries to unlike lawless nations such as the US. Even though it is an unfair treaty forced on them they are upholding it for the most part. And that's the point. If they did roll in and abolish the SAR state or just blatantly install Beijing underlings or otherwise change it the western media would be screaming, the US would sanction them, Britain would sanction them, etc. Also much of the investment and companies in HK who use it as an offshore base for entry into China would flee. China's wisest course of action is to allow things to continue, to attempt media outreach and education and hope the people of Hong Kong vote in a way that makes changes in their own favor. But it won't be easy, the powerful wealthy interests there who puppet these protests alongside the western government interests won't have it. Never forget what set these protests off was an extradition treaty with all the usual protections set off by a piece of shit man who murdered his girlfriend and fled there. China very much wants to play by the international rules, it wants to do this for its own benefit and to win disputes in international institutions as well as garnering international support. The African nations among others can see the US hypocrisy to China's good law abiding nature and it makes them favor China.
I think the problem we have run into here, that lead you to downvote my comment unfairly and uncritically, immediately, is that you do not yet have what I would call a leftist conception of democracy. You have a bourgeois conception of democracy because you live in the imperial core. You have not sufficiently revolutionized your own politics, in all honesty.
Bourgeois electoralism is simply the freedom for one class to oppress another with democracy. If one class is oppressing another, is the oppressed class truly democratized?
I think the problem we have run into here, that lead you to downvote my comment unfairly and uncritically, immediately
I didn't downvote you at all. I appreciate anyone that wants to have a conversation with me.
you do not yet have what I would call a leftist conception of democracy. You have a bourgeois conception of democracy because you live in the imperial core. You have not sufficiently revolutionized your own politics, in all honesty.
Could you recommend a book, or some other theory, that could help me reach a place where I can understand?
Absolutely. Mao Zedong writes very clearly on this.
A work that would be particularly relevant to Hong Kong would be of course inside Maoism itself.
There is a particularly relevant example here for Hungary. Please read the whole thing carefully, then move on to On Contradiction and other Maoist works. This is necessary to think clearly about China, Hong Kong, and so on.
You do know that they are attempting a bourgeois and reactionary break away from China and into the welcoming arms of global capitalism?
The rightist leaders want more slaves. More money. More blood. Bourgeois parliamentarianism. This isn’t about reform, or democracy - it’s a rightist autonomy movement, how could it be?
I’m very confused. There is autonomy, and it divides into two - left and right. How could you think that this “revolution” is a good thing for the left?
China has a large, tremendous position within the nightmare of global capitalism. Anyone can look at the planetary balance sheet and confirm this. Yet, China is still “socialist”, in the sense that there is socialism in the hearts and minds of the masses and leadership. This is clear. The Chinese state is acting, generally, in the interests of the masses.
Comrade, I have a feeling that there are major contradictions that you have not resolved with regards to China, and your own position within global capitalism. It is not enough to simply say all states are bad and then, in contradiction, creating new ones without doing a full class study. This cannot be leftism.
We all sympathize with Hong Kong’s protestors, who are of course real people, more than we do the Chinese state.
However - the rightist leaders do not have the authentic support of the masses. Their movement is tainted by the influence of imperialism. Because of this, they cannot be successful. They cannot bring any “national liberation”. Did the CIA amplify Hong Kong? Of course they did.
If the autonomy movement was left, or becomes left, then of course all of this changes.
Can't I critically support Hong Kongers in their desire for independence, while also criticizing the parts of their attempt that I find less than ideal? I understand that on the whole the Hong Kong protests aren't revolutionary, but I don't see how keeping their current, undemocratic system helps to further leftist goals. Like, China has the power to change the Hong Kong system to be more democratic, right? So why haven't they done that, and how does keeping Hong Kong undemocratic further socialist goals?
deleted by creator
Fair enough, but what about Hong Kong's desire for independence is comparable to the CSA or fascists?
80% of Hong Kong does not want independence from China. They are Chinese. You are supporting a colonization project led by the UK & the US. Stop talking.
deleted by creator
Sure, no movement is inherently a good thing. But then all independence movements are comparable to the CSA/fascists. That doesn't seem like a very useful comparison.
deleted by creator
No. That makes you a useful CIA tool. I'm sorry if that's blunt or sounds mean but if you propagate their lies, if you attack their enemies and support their agenda and efforts they don't care a whit nor does it matter to the impressionable liberal a whit if you sign your support with an asterisk and several paragraphs of short-comings beneath it. Because you've picked a side, theirs and everything after that point will be ignored by liberals. It doesn't make you a reasonable centrist or enlightened person to accept the western propaganda's aim but compromise by rejecting specific points.
Why not critically support China while criticizing the parts you find less than ideal? I always find this interesting and it is a result of indoctrination and latent anti-communism, western chauvinism, and internalized capitalist propaganda, that your left-liberal will nod in agreement at the crimes of the US, at the fact the Democrats abet these horrible crimes and yet when the time for support comes they'll refuse support to socialist nations on the grounds the capitalist media told them they were committing atrocities and that they believe them. Yet many of them will still critically support the US, the Democrats, the efforts of the CIA which they acknowledge as less than perfect in an incredible show of charity to the CIA, to capitalist interests, to US hegemony and allies to it, that is strangely not extended to socialist nations that are less than perfect.
Also most Hong Kongers do not want independence[1] nor should they get it were they brainwashed enough to. Hong Kong is not an ethnic group, it is not a native or indigenous group of people put upon by colonizing forces. It is a colonial wound full of Han Chinese people left by the British after the century of humiliation, it should have been fully repatriated to China but the Chinese being overly reasonable and not in any position to wage a full war with western powers offered concessions, that it would be independent. The West by sewing anti-communist, anti-China propaganda there broke that bargain, the west by sponsoring a color revolution attempt broke that bargain. They teach their school children terrible lies about China in their curriculum. Hong Kong is Chinese land, now and forever. It cannot and will not be split off by western powers into a toe hold once more which is the whole point.
De facto? Yes. They could roll the PLA tanks in tomorrow and the world would sob but no one could stop them nor would anyone mobilize any force to do so. But China abides by its treaties and laws or tries to unlike lawless nations such as the US. Even though it is an unfair treaty forced on them they are upholding it for the most part. And that's the point. If they did roll in and abolish the SAR state or just blatantly install Beijing underlings or otherwise change it the western media would be screaming, the US would sanction them, Britain would sanction them, etc. Also much of the investment and companies in HK who use it as an offshore base for entry into China would flee. China's wisest course of action is to allow things to continue, to attempt media outreach and education and hope the people of Hong Kong vote in a way that makes changes in their own favor. But it won't be easy, the powerful wealthy interests there who puppet these protests alongside the western government interests won't have it. Never forget what set these protests off was an extradition treaty with all the usual protections set off by a piece of shit man who murdered his girlfriend and fled there. China very much wants to play by the international rules, it wants to do this for its own benefit and to win disputes in international institutions as well as garnering international support. The African nations among others can see the US hypocrisy to China's good law abiding nature and it makes them favor China.
[1]https://www.reddit.com/r/Sino/wiki/faq/hong-kong-taiwan/summer-2019-protests#wiki_important_polls_and_numbers
I think the problem we have run into here, that lead you to downvote my comment unfairly and uncritically, immediately, is that you do not yet have what I would call a leftist conception of democracy. You have a bourgeois conception of democracy because you live in the imperial core. You have not sufficiently revolutionized your own politics, in all honesty.
Bourgeois electoralism is simply the freedom for one class to oppress another with democracy. If one class is oppressing another, is the oppressed class truly democratized?
deleted by creator
Oh, neither am I. Just a guess.
I didn't downvote you at all. I appreciate anyone that wants to have a conversation with me.
Could you recommend a book, or some other theory, that could help me reach a place where I can understand?
Absolutely. Mao Zedong writes very clearly on this.
A work that would be particularly relevant to Hong Kong would be of course inside Maoism itself.
There is a particularly relevant example here for Hungary. Please read the whole thing carefully, then move on to On Contradiction and other Maoist works. This is necessary to think clearly about China, Hong Kong, and so on.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-5/mswv5_58.htm
Thanks a lot! I'll try to give this a good read sometime this week.
No worries comrade. I’m sorry for being short!
No problem. I'm used to people responding a bit emotionally; this is an emotional topic after all.