sharing this for discussion, i have not read the book or seen the movie

  • BodyBySisyphus [he/him]
    ·
    2 years ago

    Addressed in the article:

    Historically, most attacks on property — including vandalism, sabotage, animal liberation, arson and explosives — have been highly precise in nature, attempting to directly stop or delay a harmful activity. Analyzing the relatively rare use of arson by the animal and earth liberation movement, scholar Michael Loadenthal writes that “when such a tactic is chosen, it appears to target locations viewed as integral to production and distribution, not solely retail locations typically targeted for more symbolic (yet costly) vandalism.” This same type of laser focus is exhibited by the courageous militancy of Palestine Action in the United Kingdom, which has been waging a multi-year direct action effort, including sabotage and property destruction, against local factories and businesses linked to murderous Israeli drone manufacturer Elbit Systems. The objective with such tactics isn’t principally to pressure, persuade or raise consciousness (although these can certainly be welcome byproducts), but to materially prevent something from happening or continuing.

    The author isn't saying don't engage in sabotage, they're saying don't do something that'll immediately get you merc'd and have zero material impact on the global trade of the commodity you're attacking.

      • BodyBySisyphus [he/him]
        ·
        2 years ago

        Also critiqued in the article:

        Malm takes a slightly different approach in the book. He doesn’t frame sabotage as an end in itself but rather a method of deterrence to “let the capitalists who keep on investing in the fire know that their properties will be trashed” and to put pressure on the bourgeois state “to proclaim the prohibition and begin retiring the stock” of fossil fuel infrastructure. This chimerical proposal, hinging on a social democratic view of the neutral and pliable capitalist state, has been best critiqued by Arnold Schroder of Fight Like an Animal podcast: “Ultimately, his strategy is to sabotage his way into the hearts and minds of the people who currently inhabit the power structure. This is just one of the crazier varieties of liberalism I’ve ever encountered: this is sabotage liberalism.”
        ...
        Can art and polemics play a role in helping cultivate such commitment, despite formal restraints or contradictions? Of course. But the “hope” and “feeling of possibility” that Goldhaber worked to generate with this film, and Malm with his book, isn’t grounded in material conditions, necessary commitments, or even an on-ramp to effective property destruction. It’s a “sabotage liberalism” that at worst will goad people into getting jailed or killed for no gain and at best waste precious time distracted by an adventurist “solution” that refuses to learn from the past or organize for a revolutionary future.

        • StewartCopelandsDad [he/him]
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          edit-2
          2 years ago

          I think the core disagreement between Wilt and Malm is that Wilt thinks the oil market is really resilient and would require more than just a small guerilla war (essentially) to become unprofitable. Malm thinks an achievable level of sabotage could disrupt markets enough to make oil a bad investment. This "hearts and minds" stuff is not a fair representation of Malm's argument - he says direct action has to be a real threat on its own terms for capital to be willing to neutralize it by conceding to the less-demanding nonviolent movement. I liked the linked review better.

          • BodyBySisyphus [he/him]
            ·
            2 years ago

            I think that's a reasonable representation of the debate but I disagree that the "hearts and minds" is a mischaracterization. In this context, Witt is arguing that Malm's thesis must be that sabotage can create the perception that oil is a bad investment because altering the material reality would be beyond the reach of small, isolated groups of individuals acting independently against discrete targets as portrayed in the movie. As Witt notes, state actors currently have to work to make oil scarce to maintain its profitability, and so the possibility exists that the guerrillas will just make their job easier, if not just causing a momentary blip in prices that the market will easily be able to correct through other infrastructure or means. Pipelines are the cheapest way to transport oil but they aren't the only profitable way to do so, and concluding that attacking one would have an impact requires assuming that capital is essentially persuadable and incapable of adaptation.

            • StewartCopelandsDad [he/him]
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              edit-2
              2 years ago

              I suppose. I think that Malm genuinely disagrees about feasibility but that's because of a different understanding of the market/subsidy situation. The movie includes some lip service about driving up oil costs due to the increased cost of maintenance, etc. Having to recheck many other miles of pipeline. IIRC, the book says the mechanism is that the possibility of attacks (painful on a company level) will make investors warier to invest in fossil fuels, driving up the cost of capital and causing a real problem for industry, but I might be making that up. In short that the irrational market is actually where "hearts and minds" works. Personally I think Witt is probably more correct, but I don't know enough about fossil fuel finance to know if he's overstating it and falling into climate fatalism.

              Anyway the things I thought were missing in the book were

              a) a nuts-and-bolts explanation if the current mass climate movement is actually advanced enough to benefit from a violent vanguard. The "MLK and Panthers" theory seems well supported but there was not much analysis of the current climate movement, and since the book was written I think it's actually lost momentum because of pandemic disruptions.

              b) specific strategies for causing the max disruption per unit effort/risk. Not lentils-in-tire-valves propaganda, the real sabotage. Especially because the highest concentration of leftists who want to do something are in cities, physically far from fossil fuel infra. How-to manual stuff.

              This realization that actually a lot of capitalist infrastructure isn't really controlled by the market but by government subsidies is also a problem for veganism. Turns out we kind of have a centrally planned economy.

                • StewartCopelandsDad [he/him]
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                  edit-2
                  2 years ago

                  these are appealing because they place the saboteur furthest from the action, but are they really the most bang for the buck? quadcopters are good for killing people but you can't deliver an oil drum of ANFO to a pipeline that way. Most you can do is arson probably. Remember those guys who caused a big blackout by shooting at electrical substations?

                  i wanted like, half a book about this at least. probably necessary omission for it to be publishable but still

                  • JoeByeThen [he/him, they/them]
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                    2 years ago

                    Honestly, in the imperial core, I would emphasis more on the learn to hack, than the quadcopters and drones. Gotta think outside the box. I feel like Malm's book may have caused a tunnelvision on the physical pipelines instead of the infrastructure that builds and maintains them. Payrolls, communications, Industrial control systems... there's a whole eco-system of interdependent systems that maintains Capital's order and they are largely digital nowadays.

                        • MaoZedongOfficial [none/use name]
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                          edit-2
                          2 years ago

                          Well I should have used one of slightly less plausible options from prior decades. Many great examples. Anyways looks like it's gonna be international trade not hackermans, they started banning ppls from SWIFT and started something irreversible

                            • MaoZedongOfficial [none/use name]
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                              edit-2
                              2 years ago

                              Don't know how i feel about everyone throwing around unabomber fantasies & Anonymous larping. But that's what I'm saying, yeah we overextended

                              I meant the US is running off the cliff like Wile E Coyote with the sanctions and losing the ability to sustain our nonsensical bloated financial rentier class (they're gonna make us all pay as much as it's in their power ofc)

                              The US has backdoors in the hardware of the chips we use in phones and computers. There are no free CPU and GPU architectures i know of. Eyeing riscv of course

                  • MaoZedongOfficial [none/use name]
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                    edit-2
                    2 years ago

                    That blackout was due to kinks in the power grid and was back up very quickly, there's protection on those radiators exactly for this, and they'd add more security if waves attacks happened

              • MaoZedongOfficial [none/use name]
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                2 years ago

                This assumes that the feds can't do surveillance effectively because right wingers carry out terrorist attacks effectively, but we all know the real reason they make such "oversights"

            • Dr_Gabriel_Aby [none/use name]
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              2 years ago

              Im gonna blow your mind. Pipelines and railroads can be sabotaged pretty similarly. Domestic oil is currently moved by over 80% in this fashion.

              Is disrupting 80% of the domestic oil industry an easy market fix?

              • BodyBySisyphus [he/him]
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                2 years ago

                I don't think you're seeing how much volume and geographic dispersion that figure entails; it's not like they're routing it all through Penn Station.

                Given the widely publicized derailment of a 1.4 mile train resulting in absolutely fuck all happening to prevent it again, I imagine it would take a complex and highly coordinated campaign just to rise above background. You're not going to accomplish much with a handful of isolated cells doing stochastic terrorism.

          • zifnab25 [he/him, any]
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            edit-2
            2 years ago

            the oil market is really resilient and would require more than just a small guerilla war (essentially) to become unprofitable

            Destruction of fossil fuel infrastructure won't necessarily make it less profitable (particularly for surviving pipeliners). But raising the perceived risk premium can shift all sorts of investment calculations, especially during periods of higher interest rates and declining fossil fuel prices.

        • MaoZedongOfficial [none/use name]
          ·
          2 years ago

          Hah good description of someone I dated who aspired to publically humiliating herself in a closed meeting of pharma bros before getting escorted out by security & lobbying Nancy Pelosi about chronic lyme

    • zifnab25 [he/him, any]
      ·
      2 years ago

      they’re saying don’t do something that’ll immediately get you merc’d and have zero material impact

      At this point, standing on a subway and announcing that you're starving gets you merc'd.