Islamic extremists are not the same as regular muslims. Conflating the two is the problem. Blasting that the religion and all muslims are a problem is what grows their ranks, it massively radicalises regular muslims through the alienation and racial hatred they receive in their day to day lives.
There are some core tenants to islam, like not depicting Muhammad, which are universal tho. While only small number of loons go out and actually commit these acts, it's not like Muslim countries don't have laws on their books against criticizing him and Islam in general, for example Pakistan.
And? What point are you making? That because some violent people do something bad that it's fine for the government itself to advocate for the thing that upsets all the normal non-violent muslims?
The depiction IS offensive and bad. It does not deserve a violent reprisal and that should be condemned, but the depiction itself should still be condemned as offensive and bad. It should not be encouraged wholesale by the state itself as Macron has been doing. This is encouragement of something intended specifically to stir reactionary outcomes.
Then we are making special cases for Muslims above other religions. No one else would get this privilege and then you think that won't build animus amongst the others.
No we're fucking not. I will defend anything that is strictly offensive to other religions too, it's just not necessary.
As far as I'm concerned performing the depiction is not dissimilar to performing a racist or transphobic act. In many cases that's EXACTLY how reactionaries are using it too -- as a substitute for blatant racism. It's obviously problematic by itself, it doesn't deserve people to have their heads cut off, but it does deserve condemning. You're making the same "special treatment" argument that reactionaries make for lgbt and skin colour when we condemn them for other ways they attack those minority groups.
Well no since being lgbt and having a certain skin color is something you are born with. Religion is not something like that. I guess if you commit some violence then that breeds fear in people from talking about your ideology, maybe some other religions and ideologies will take note.
It's irrelevant whether it's a religion or not. It's still an attack on a minority group, religious or otherwise. Religious minorities are a hierarchy just the same. Attacks on all minority groups are attacks to elevate the primary caste of society (white male cis straight christian) and lower others.
When have I abused Polish or Eastern European migrants?
Please don't call me white.
This seems like a deeply generalised attack that makes a whole bunch of assumptions about me. Who are you even attacking? Why? Why is it being directed at me? Respond to people's actual words instead of making shit up based on whatever cartoon caricature you've decided a person is in your head please.
EDIT: Unless I've completely misinterpreted this as an attack when it's not. In which case carry on.
You can criticize religion but come on you have to admit blasting depictions of Mohammed onto government buildings in response to the first beheading was a moronic idea that did nothing but make everything worse.
It's almost like Hebdo makes fun of everyone, they make fun of Catholics as well Keep on that attitude that you shouldn't do anything to upset Muslims. If someone feels that upset about a stupid cartoon that they go and behead someone, then maybe they should get their heads checked and it's their problem and not anyone elses
well obviously beheading someone over your religion is a ghastly and horrible act but its also a political act, and it didn't occur in a vaccuum. when muslims in france are ostracized and radicalized because of it, you don't .... continue to ostracize them even more after this.
I'm also part of a group that is used as cheap labor in Western Europe and lots of my countrymen are getting paid under minimum wage and living 10 people per apartment so they can send money back home to their families. Where are we killing people in the streets? Mexicans are ostracized in America and you don't see Mexican terrorists. There is something going on in those communities, we should follow the Chinese model. Reeducation, shutting down illegal mosques and ones who are spreading this kind of nonsense (many of whom are sponsored by Saudis), etc.
i agree that something has to be done like re education, but it has to be done well, in a way not to ostracize muslims in france further. my whole point is pouring fuel into the fire doesn't do anything good, it will have negative outcomes for muslims in france, and frankly, will result in more murders like this.
Except there is no way to do it without ruffling some feathers. You shut down some Saudi mosques, someone will get upset, you nationalize the hiring of imans, someone will get upset.
Did we forget that the return and expansion of "radical Islam" was a direct result of western intervention in emerging Middle Eastern SSR's? That the violent and brutal forces of reaction were directly funded and supported by the US state department in an attempt to cripple the development of socialism in the region? That to this day terrorism is still being directly funded and controlled by western powers against socialists.
This situation is clearly a result of religious radicalization coupled with poor material conditions. Just think about how many fundamentalists in America would snap and turn into extremists. It's not a specifically Islamic thing.
The purpose of religious extremism is to serve as a catch of false consciousness, to re-direct anyone who's beginning to understand that their conditions are shit and turn them into a tool of oppression against others who are gaining consciousness.
And I agree about stopping the inflammatory bullshit. It's in bad taste. Especially because there isn't any sort of racial equality. It's a joke at their expense.
i agree 100% with you. the other user, who i guess got banned lol, was being annoying but i was hoping i could get them to understand what they're saying in good faith, oh well. i mean we already have fundamentalists in america who snap and turn to extremists, and then kill people. if france wants to address the problem with islamic extremism in their own country they have to grapple with their past do something to hit the core of the issue. obv reeducation camps could work but you would have to try to tightrope deradicalization with allowing them to preserve their culture. thats ostensibly what china is doing, though who knows exactly whats going on there, im sure its probably better than whatever france could come up with.
blasting depictions of the prophet in response to this is just ludicrous. all it does is give french racists a smug feeling for being "cultured" while actually being responsible for a rise in extremism and violence. not only is it horrible and racist, its also stupid.
Yep, also you can't deradicalize without also fixing the initial problem of poor material conditions. Just arresting people and telling at them to not be terrorists isn't going to work. Would be cool to actually have legitimate reporting about China's de-radicalization programs in the west, but I guess the intelligence agencies have no interest in deradicalization. It's a tool that they aren't willing to part with.
Maybe blasting Islamaphobia in response to the previous killing was not a good idea
Guys can we please not criticize a religion or else you have it coming.
Islamic extremists are not the same as regular muslims. Conflating the two is the problem. Blasting that the religion and all muslims are a problem is what grows their ranks, it massively radicalises regular muslims through the alienation and racial hatred they receive in their day to day lives.
There are some core tenants to islam, like not depicting Muhammad, which are universal tho. While only small number of loons go out and actually commit these acts, it's not like Muslim countries don't have laws on their books against criticizing him and Islam in general, for example Pakistan.
And? What point are you making? That because some violent people do something bad that it's fine for the government itself to advocate for the thing that upsets all the normal non-violent muslims?
The depiction IS offensive and bad. It does not deserve a violent reprisal and that should be condemned, but the depiction itself should still be condemned as offensive and bad. It should not be encouraged wholesale by the state itself as Macron has been doing. This is encouragement of something intended specifically to stir reactionary outcomes.
Then we are making special cases for Muslims above other religions. No one else would get this privilege and then you think that won't build animus amongst the others.
No we're fucking not. I will defend anything that is strictly offensive to other religions too, it's just not necessary.
As far as I'm concerned performing the depiction is not dissimilar to performing a racist or transphobic act. In many cases that's EXACTLY how reactionaries are using it too -- as a substitute for blatant racism. It's obviously problematic by itself, it doesn't deserve people to have their heads cut off, but it does deserve condemning. You're making the same "special treatment" argument that reactionaries make for lgbt and skin colour when we condemn them for other ways they attack those minority groups.
Well no since being lgbt and having a certain skin color is something you are born with. Religion is not something like that. I guess if you commit some violence then that breeds fear in people from talking about your ideology, maybe some other religions and ideologies will take note.
It's irrelevant whether it's a religion or not. It's still an attack on a minority group, religious or otherwise. Religious minorities are a hierarchy just the same. Attacks on all minority groups are attacks to elevate the primary caste of society (white male cis straight christian) and lower others.
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When have I abused Polish or Eastern European migrants?
Please don't call me white.
This seems like a deeply generalised attack that makes a whole bunch of assumptions about me. Who are you even attacking? Why? Why is it being directed at me? Respond to people's actual words instead of making shit up based on whatever cartoon caricature you've decided a person is in your head please.
EDIT: Unless I've completely misinterpreted this as an attack when it's not. In which case carry on.
Removed by mod
You seem to have no idea that I'm fucking Czech. Stop assuming people's ethnicity, it's fucking embarrassing and you're clearly a reactionary.
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
You can criticize religion but come on you have to admit blasting depictions of Mohammed onto government buildings in response to the first beheading was a moronic idea that did nothing but make everything worse.
It's almost like Hebdo makes fun of everyone, they make fun of Catholics as well Keep on that attitude that you shouldn't do anything to upset Muslims. If someone feels that upset about a stupid cartoon that they go and behead someone, then maybe they should get their heads checked and it's their problem and not anyone elses
well obviously beheading someone over your religion is a ghastly and horrible act but its also a political act, and it didn't occur in a vaccuum. when muslims in france are ostracized and radicalized because of it, you don't .... continue to ostracize them even more after this.
I'm also part of a group that is used as cheap labor in Western Europe and lots of my countrymen are getting paid under minimum wage and living 10 people per apartment so they can send money back home to their families. Where are we killing people in the streets? Mexicans are ostracized in America and you don't see Mexican terrorists. There is something going on in those communities, we should follow the Chinese model. Reeducation, shutting down illegal mosques and ones who are spreading this kind of nonsense (many of whom are sponsored by Saudis), etc.
i agree that something has to be done like re education, but it has to be done well, in a way not to ostracize muslims in france further. my whole point is pouring fuel into the fire doesn't do anything good, it will have negative outcomes for muslims in france, and frankly, will result in more murders like this.
Except there is no way to do it without ruffling some feathers. You shut down some Saudi mosques, someone will get upset, you nationalize the hiring of imans, someone will get upset.
totally
but broadcasting depictions of mohammed on gov buildings generally has no good outcomes to it, its only intention is to ruffle feathers.
Did we forget that the return and expansion of "radical Islam" was a direct result of western intervention in emerging Middle Eastern SSR's? That the violent and brutal forces of reaction were directly funded and supported by the US state department in an attempt to cripple the development of socialism in the region? That to this day terrorism is still being directly funded and controlled by western powers against socialists.
This situation is clearly a result of religious radicalization coupled with poor material conditions. Just think about how many fundamentalists in America would snap and turn into extremists. It's not a specifically Islamic thing.
The purpose of religious extremism is to serve as a catch of false consciousness, to re-direct anyone who's beginning to understand that their conditions are shit and turn them into a tool of oppression against others who are gaining consciousness.
And I agree about stopping the inflammatory bullshit. It's in bad taste. Especially because there isn't any sort of racial equality. It's a joke at their expense.
i agree 100% with you. the other user, who i guess got banned lol, was being annoying but i was hoping i could get them to understand what they're saying in good faith, oh well. i mean we already have fundamentalists in america who snap and turn to extremists, and then kill people. if france wants to address the problem with islamic extremism in their own country they have to grapple with their past do something to hit the core of the issue. obv reeducation camps could work but you would have to try to tightrope deradicalization with allowing them to preserve their culture. thats ostensibly what china is doing, though who knows exactly whats going on there, im sure its probably better than whatever france could come up with.
blasting depictions of the prophet in response to this is just ludicrous. all it does is give french racists a smug feeling for being "cultured" while actually being responsible for a rise in extremism and violence. not only is it horrible and racist, its also stupid.
Yep, also you can't deradicalize without also fixing the initial problem of poor material conditions. Just arresting people and telling at them to not be terrorists isn't going to work. Would be cool to actually have legitimate reporting about China's de-radicalization programs in the west, but I guess the intelligence agencies have no interest in deradicalization. It's a tool that they aren't willing to part with.