Islamic extremists are not the same as regular muslims. Conflating the two is the problem. Blasting that the religion and all muslims are a problem is what grows their ranks, it massively radicalises regular muslims through the alienation and racial hatred they receive in their day to day lives.
There are some core tenants to islam, like not depicting Muhammad, which are universal tho. While only small number of loons go out and actually commit these acts, it's not like Muslim countries don't have laws on their books against criticizing him and Islam in general, for example Pakistan.
And? What point are you making? That because some violent people do something bad that it's fine for the government itself to advocate for the thing that upsets all the normal non-violent muslims?
The depiction IS offensive and bad. It does not deserve a violent reprisal and that should be condemned, but the depiction itself should still be condemned as offensive and bad. It should not be encouraged wholesale by the state itself as Macron has been doing. This is encouragement of something intended specifically to stir reactionary outcomes.
Then we are making special cases for Muslims above other religions. No one else would get this privilege and then you think that won't build animus amongst the others.
No we're fucking not. I will defend anything that is strictly offensive to other religions too, it's just not necessary.
As far as I'm concerned performing the depiction is not dissimilar to performing a racist or transphobic act. In many cases that's EXACTLY how reactionaries are using it too -- as a substitute for blatant racism. It's obviously problematic by itself, it doesn't deserve people to have their heads cut off, but it does deserve condemning. You're making the same "special treatment" argument that reactionaries make for lgbt and skin colour when we condemn them for other ways they attack those minority groups.
Well no since being lgbt and having a certain skin color is something you are born with. Religion is not something like that. I guess if you commit some violence then that breeds fear in people from talking about your ideology, maybe some other religions and ideologies will take note.
It's irrelevant whether it's a religion or not. It's still an attack on a minority group, religious or otherwise. Religious minorities are a hierarchy just the same. Attacks on all minority groups are attacks to elevate the primary caste of society (white male cis straight christian) and lower others.
You can criticize religion but come on you have to admit blasting depictions of Mohammed onto government buildings in response to the first beheading was a moronic idea that did nothing but make everything worse.
It's almost like Hebdo makes fun of everyone, they make fun of Catholics as well Keep on that attitude that you shouldn't do anything to upset Muslims. If someone feels that upset about a stupid cartoon that they go and behead someone, then maybe they should get their heads checked and it's their problem and not anyone elses
well obviously beheading someone over your religion is a ghastly and horrible act but its also a political act, and it didn't occur in a vaccuum. when muslims in france are ostracized and radicalized because of it, you don't .... continue to ostracize them even more after this.
I'm also part of a group that is used as cheap labor in Western Europe and lots of my countrymen are getting paid under minimum wage and living 10 people per apartment so they can send money back home to their families. Where are we killing people in the streets? Mexicans are ostracized in America and you don't see Mexican terrorists. There is something going on in those communities, we should follow the Chinese model. Reeducation, shutting down illegal mosques and ones who are spreading this kind of nonsense (many of whom are sponsored by Saudis), etc.
i agree that something has to be done like re education, but it has to be done well, in a way not to ostracize muslims in france further. my whole point is pouring fuel into the fire doesn't do anything good, it will have negative outcomes for muslims in france, and frankly, will result in more murders like this.
Except there is no way to do it without ruffling some feathers. You shut down some Saudi mosques, someone will get upset, you nationalize the hiring of imans, someone will get upset.
Maybe blasting Islamaphobia in response to the previous killing was not a good idea
Guys can we please not criticize a religion or else you have it coming.
Islamic extremists are not the same as regular muslims. Conflating the two is the problem. Blasting that the religion and all muslims are a problem is what grows their ranks, it massively radicalises regular muslims through the alienation and racial hatred they receive in their day to day lives.
There are some core tenants to islam, like not depicting Muhammad, which are universal tho. While only small number of loons go out and actually commit these acts, it's not like Muslim countries don't have laws on their books against criticizing him and Islam in general, for example Pakistan.
And? What point are you making? That because some violent people do something bad that it's fine for the government itself to advocate for the thing that upsets all the normal non-violent muslims?
The depiction IS offensive and bad. It does not deserve a violent reprisal and that should be condemned, but the depiction itself should still be condemned as offensive and bad. It should not be encouraged wholesale by the state itself as Macron has been doing. This is encouragement of something intended specifically to stir reactionary outcomes.
Then we are making special cases for Muslims above other religions. No one else would get this privilege and then you think that won't build animus amongst the others.
No we're fucking not. I will defend anything that is strictly offensive to other religions too, it's just not necessary.
As far as I'm concerned performing the depiction is not dissimilar to performing a racist or transphobic act. In many cases that's EXACTLY how reactionaries are using it too -- as a substitute for blatant racism. It's obviously problematic by itself, it doesn't deserve people to have their heads cut off, but it does deserve condemning. You're making the same "special treatment" argument that reactionaries make for lgbt and skin colour when we condemn them for other ways they attack those minority groups.
Well no since being lgbt and having a certain skin color is something you are born with. Religion is not something like that. I guess if you commit some violence then that breeds fear in people from talking about your ideology, maybe some other religions and ideologies will take note.
It's irrelevant whether it's a religion or not. It's still an attack on a minority group, religious or otherwise. Religious minorities are a hierarchy just the same. Attacks on all minority groups are attacks to elevate the primary caste of society (white male cis straight christian) and lower others.
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You can criticize religion but come on you have to admit blasting depictions of Mohammed onto government buildings in response to the first beheading was a moronic idea that did nothing but make everything worse.
It's almost like Hebdo makes fun of everyone, they make fun of Catholics as well Keep on that attitude that you shouldn't do anything to upset Muslims. If someone feels that upset about a stupid cartoon that they go and behead someone, then maybe they should get their heads checked and it's their problem and not anyone elses
well obviously beheading someone over your religion is a ghastly and horrible act but its also a political act, and it didn't occur in a vaccuum. when muslims in france are ostracized and radicalized because of it, you don't .... continue to ostracize them even more after this.
I'm also part of a group that is used as cheap labor in Western Europe and lots of my countrymen are getting paid under minimum wage and living 10 people per apartment so they can send money back home to their families. Where are we killing people in the streets? Mexicans are ostracized in America and you don't see Mexican terrorists. There is something going on in those communities, we should follow the Chinese model. Reeducation, shutting down illegal mosques and ones who are spreading this kind of nonsense (many of whom are sponsored by Saudis), etc.
i agree that something has to be done like re education, but it has to be done well, in a way not to ostracize muslims in france further. my whole point is pouring fuel into the fire doesn't do anything good, it will have negative outcomes for muslims in france, and frankly, will result in more murders like this.
Except there is no way to do it without ruffling some feathers. You shut down some Saudi mosques, someone will get upset, you nationalize the hiring of imans, someone will get upset.
totally
but broadcasting depictions of mohammed on gov buildings generally has no good outcomes to it, its only intention is to ruffle feathers.