I figured I'd throw my opinion in the mix. "Star Trek: Voyager" might have missed an opportunity to address the Tuvix dilemma by not considering a solution presented in "Star Trek: The Next Generation." Specifically, given the transporter's ability to duplicate individuals as seen in Second Chances" where the incident produced two Rikers. Captain Janeway could have potentially cloned Tuvix (with his knowledge and consent of course) and then reversed the merging process on one of them. This would allow both Tuvix and the separated Tuvok and Neelix to coexist.
That Riker example you're using wasn't something they could easily duplicate though. It was an accident involving too many variables for Voyager to re-create. But let's say that they do manage to create two Tuvixs.
Which one do you kill? The new one? The old one? By what criteria? Both don't want to die. You've cloned them, sure, but now you're still sentencing a sentient being to death. The only thing you've done is make the decision twice as hard. Before it was just "Tuvix or Tuvok/Neelix?" Now it's "Tuvix and Tuvix? Or Tuvix and Tuvok/Neelix? Or Tuvok/Neelix and Tuvix?"
The Riker example was just one of many wasn't it? The "transporter clone" trope has been around since StarTrek: The Original Series when Captain Kirk was replicated by accident. As well as recent trek canon when Boimler was replicated on StarTrek: Lower Decks.
From an in-universe perspective, given the numerous transporter accidents throughout Starfleet's history, it would seem logical that Starfleet would invest resources into understanding these anomalies to prevent unintended duplications or other mishaps. Transporter technology is complex and interacts with a myriad of environmental conditions, which might explain why these accidents, while rare in the context of all transport operations, still happen occasionally.
Voyager could have taken the next steps and introduced a new level of control over the technology by relying on Starfleet, had it thoroughly investigated and understood these incidents. I don't see why they might not have developed protocols or technologies to recreate such anomalies intentionally. This could have provided Captain Janeway with an additional solution to the Tuvix dilemma.
Also as for which to kill, that would of course be up to Tuvix - which without his consent this would be moot. The logical one I suppose would be the original Tuvix only to lower the number of possible variables in the "separation."
The Riker example was just one of many wasn’t it? The “transporter clone” trope has been around since StarTrek: The Original Series when Captain Kirk was replicated by accident. As well as recent trek canon when Boimler was replicated on StarTrek: Lower Decks.
Kirk wasn't cloned, he was split into two different versions of himself that contained different parts of his personality/ego. A clone needs to be a copy, not a lower resolution version of the character. Also Boimler was re-created through the same fashion that Riker was. It also happened 20ish years after Voyager left for the Delta Quadrant.
From an in-universe perspective, given the numerous transporter accidents throughout Starfleet’s history, it would seem logical that Starfleet would invest resources into understanding these anomalies to prevent unintended duplications or other mishaps. Transporter technology is complex and interacts with a myriad of environmental conditions, which might explain why these accidents, while rare in the context of all transport operations, still happen occasionally.
They do. Starfleets whole thing is exploration and study. During the episodes where there have been clones you see a vast amount of information that's uncovered. Testing is done to see what happened and how to prevent it from happening again in the future.
Voyager could have taken the next steps and introduced a new level of control over the technology by relying on Starfleet, had it thoroughly investigated and understood these incidents. I don’t see why they might not have developed protocols or technologies to recreate such anomalies intentionally. This could have provided Captain Janeway with an additional solution to the Tuvix dilemma.
This doesn't make sense. You're asking Voyager, who is tens of thousands of lightyears from known space, to somehow recreate an anomaly. They do not have the level of study of each planet that would be required to find a suitable testbed. They also do not have the time. They're looking for ways to get home. The anomalies they've stopped and encountered along the way (without being pushed into investigating by aliens) have been overwhelmingly to either further the goal of getting home faster or to supply the ship with necessities for the trip. Moreover, there's the fact that the transporter cloning incidents were pure anomalies. Just because Starfleet studied them and knows what happens does not mean that they're able to recreate it. We've seen numerous times that Starfleet can understand a phenomena but can't replicate it. You're asking way too much of a small science vessel stranded in the Delta Quadrant.
Also as for which to kill, that would of course be up to Tuvix - which without his consent this would be moot.
That's the pint I am trying to make. You will not get his consent. Ever. He doesn't want to die. Just because you clone someone doesn't mean that logically they're going to go "Oh, well I guess, I can die if it means that another version of me lives." He was acting on a survival instinct. He's not going to override that just because there's a clone. Which means you must still make the decision that Janeway made. You STILL MUST decide whether to kill Tuvix or let him live. Your cloning idea might be a nice idea but that's all it is. An idea. When put into practice it immediately falls apart because you're back to the same argument that was made at the start. Do you have the right to execute one man to save the lives of two others? The issue of the episode isn't "Tuvix is a unique lifeform and then must be saved". It's "Do you have the right to kill someone in order to save others?" If you add a transporter clone into that mix the question doesn't change.
The transporter clone option is a nice idea but that's all it is. An idea. There is no situation in which you can put it into practice and have it be a solution to the problem.
No, I'm saying by the time of Voyager this teleporter clone technology could very well have been figured out. It seems a wasted opportunity to not take advantage of that storyline and open up anyone more ethical dilemmas.
There is no situation in which you can put it into practice and have it be a solution to the problem.
I see absolutely no reason why not.
You will not get his consent. Ever. He doesn't want to die.
I can't imagine why he wouldn't be in favor of the plan, especially since he is half Vulcan. It's a very logical solution to the issue.
Just because you clone someone doesn't mean that logically they're going to go "Oh, well I guess, I can die if it means that another version of me lives."
Again I see absolutely no reason not to.
He was acting on a survival instinct. He's not going to override that just because there's a clone.
There's no reason he'd have to...
Which means you must still make the decision that Janeway made. You STILL MUST decide whether to kill Tuvix or let him live.
Of course, but this way they can all coexist. I see it as an absolute win win for everyone.
apart because you're back to the same argument that was made at the start.
I definitely disagree. The argument/dilemma is inclusive of the cost of Tuvix, my solution preserves Tuvix. I'm not sure you understand what I'm proposing or are just not accepting that in this case there is no real death of anyone.
Simply sedate Tuvix, do the clone, do the split and revive whichever Tuvix is left. And now all three exist simultaneously and all that's lost to all of them is a case of missing time.
Do you have the right to execute one man to save the lives of two others?
When you can simultaneously preserve the life, absolutely!
No, I’m saying by the time of Voyager this teleporter clone technology could very well have been figured out. It seems a wasted opportunity to not take advantage of that storyline and open up anyone more ethical dilemmas.
Transporter clones are not that simple. When they occur it's because of a strange anomaly. Just because something does happen doesn't mean that they'll be able to recreate it. Everytime they've happened it's been either because of situations beyond their control or due to a complete accident.
I see absolutely no reason why not.
I have literally told you why. You keep ignoring it. You cannot use transporter clones to solve this problem when the problem is "do you have the right to kill them". A transporter clone does NOTHING other than add another person to kill. Just because you have a backup doesn't mean you suddenly are granted free murder rights.
I can’t imagine why he wouldn’t be in favor of the plan, especially since he is half Vulcan. It’s a very logical solution to the issue.
He was also half-vulcan during his freakout on the bridge. Logic dictates to get your crewmen back. You are in stranded space. You are now relying on one individual to take the responsibilities of two roles. It is logical to separate Tuvix. Loved ones got their loved ones back, the responsibilities were no longer collated into a single person, and a lack of complex/new biology makes it easier for Sick Bay. It is not logical to run around on the bridge screaming for people to not kill you. Logic doesn't seem to make much difference to Tuvix. That was also established in the episode itself where he acted based off of hunches and thoughts, not facts and opinion. Moreover, this is a survival mechanism. HE doesn't want to die. Just because someone else is going to live his life doesn't mean anything. He isn't the one who is going to live that life. You are not giving the emotional situation here the weight it overwhelmingly deserves. Especially when the character never acted logical.
Of course, but this way they can all coexist. I see it as an absolute win win for everyone.
You know, except for the Tuvix that you have to kill. A decision that is now made WAY more cold by using a transporter clone. Janeway was put in a tough decision and had to make a rough call. The option you're providing turns Janeway into a coldblooded killer who has already pre-emptively decided to kill but wants to have her cake and eat it too. I find it way more fucked up to have her resigned to already killing a man instead of being choked up making that decision.
I definitely disagree. The argument is the cost of Tuvix, my solution preserves Tuvix. I’m not sure you understand what I’m proposing or are just not accepting that in this case there is no real death of anyone.
No, that is not the argument and has never been the argument. The argument has always been "Does Janeway have the right to kill Tuvix?" That is literally the argument that's made in the episode. Just because you're cloning one and being able to keep Tuvix doesn't suddenly mean that you're still not killing a sentient creature.
When you can simultaneously preserve the life, absolutely!
Then, even though there wasn't a clone, Janeway was in the right.
Then, even though there wasn't a clone, Janeway was in the right.
100% she was perfectly justified.
As far as killing a sentient being - I'm not sure a sedated existence counts as an existence much less a sentient one.
No, that is not the argument and has never been the argument.
We simply disagree on this. The argument is exactly whether or not the life of Tuvix is worth the cost of two lives... sure other arguments are presented as with any dilemma but it boils down to the value of the two crew mates. Janeway absolutely has every right to ensure the lives of her crew. So while it was addressed directly in the episode it was one of the weaker dilemmas of the show. As captiaiher priority is always her crew, Tuvix was not her crew. I am not sure why you seem to disagree but we will have to end it there.
Yeah, we will have to end it there because you're just ignoring half of what I'm saying and ignoring the episode itself.
I disagree because you're just objectively wrong. The literal argument made in the episode is that what Janeway is doing is wrong. It has nothing to do with wiping out his unique experience. It's the fact that he doesn't want to die. That's the literal words he uses. "I don't want to die." Both Tuvix and Kes talk to Janeway about whether or not he should die. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a version of him will continue to exist.
Take care, wish you the best, but I am beyond done.
I never said it was about wiping out his own uniquely existence. And I didn't ignore half of what you said I agree with most of it and didn't feel the need to repeatedly agree.
If I'm so objectively wrong then you're very much just as wrong since we agreed so much. Heck I even agree it's his desire to live that would convince him to consent, because he does in my scenario.
It almost like your wanted to argue. You need to relax it's a show meant to be enjoyed. I simply made the case that a new avenue was available and it could have opened the doors to more. I get you disagree. But no reason to be upset.
I don't think I'll be crossing paths with you again, this reminded me too much of reddit so I'll be leaving this server. Thank you.
Thomas Riker was created through a complete freak accident involving a distortion field that reflected a transporter beam in the exact right way to duplicate Will Riker. It's not something that be done easily at will.
Now cloning and memory implantation are completely possible as well, like that one TNG episode where they make a clone of Kahless or that one very dumb ENT episode where there's a clone of Trip. I'm not sure, but cloning is probably illegal by the time of Voyager, since genetic augmentation is completely illegal throughout the Federation.
But the main problem is that nothing other than killing Tuvix would have satiated Janeway's bloodlust. For real, she's like the most evil person in that entire show.
I figured I'd throw my opinion in the mix. "Star Trek: Voyager" might have missed an opportunity to address the Tuvix dilemma by not considering a solution presented in "Star Trek: The Next Generation." Specifically, given the transporter's ability to duplicate individuals as seen in Second Chances" where the incident produced two Rikers. Captain Janeway could have potentially cloned Tuvix (with his knowledge and consent of course) and then reversed the merging process on one of them. This would allow both Tuvix and the separated Tuvok and Neelix to coexist.
That Riker example you're using wasn't something they could easily duplicate though. It was an accident involving too many variables for Voyager to re-create. But let's say that they do manage to create two Tuvixs.
Which one do you kill? The new one? The old one? By what criteria? Both don't want to die. You've cloned them, sure, but now you're still sentencing a sentient being to death. The only thing you've done is make the decision twice as hard. Before it was just "Tuvix or Tuvok/Neelix?" Now it's "Tuvix and Tuvix? Or Tuvix and Tuvok/Neelix? Or Tuvok/Neelix and Tuvix?"
The Riker example was just one of many wasn't it? The "transporter clone" trope has been around since StarTrek: The Original Series when Captain Kirk was replicated by accident. As well as recent trek canon when Boimler was replicated on StarTrek: Lower Decks.
From an in-universe perspective, given the numerous transporter accidents throughout Starfleet's history, it would seem logical that Starfleet would invest resources into understanding these anomalies to prevent unintended duplications or other mishaps. Transporter technology is complex and interacts with a myriad of environmental conditions, which might explain why these accidents, while rare in the context of all transport operations, still happen occasionally.
Voyager could have taken the next steps and introduced a new level of control over the technology by relying on Starfleet, had it thoroughly investigated and understood these incidents. I don't see why they might not have developed protocols or technologies to recreate such anomalies intentionally. This could have provided Captain Janeway with an additional solution to the Tuvix dilemma.
Also as for which to kill, that would of course be up to Tuvix - which without his consent this would be moot. The logical one I suppose would be the original Tuvix only to lower the number of possible variables in the "separation."
Kirk wasn't cloned, he was split into two different versions of himself that contained different parts of his personality/ego. A clone needs to be a copy, not a lower resolution version of the character. Also Boimler was re-created through the same fashion that Riker was. It also happened 20ish years after Voyager left for the Delta Quadrant.
They do. Starfleets whole thing is exploration and study. During the episodes where there have been clones you see a vast amount of information that's uncovered. Testing is done to see what happened and how to prevent it from happening again in the future.
This doesn't make sense. You're asking Voyager, who is tens of thousands of lightyears from known space, to somehow recreate an anomaly. They do not have the level of study of each planet that would be required to find a suitable testbed. They also do not have the time. They're looking for ways to get home. The anomalies they've stopped and encountered along the way (without being pushed into investigating by aliens) have been overwhelmingly to either further the goal of getting home faster or to supply the ship with necessities for the trip. Moreover, there's the fact that the transporter cloning incidents were pure anomalies. Just because Starfleet studied them and knows what happens does not mean that they're able to recreate it. We've seen numerous times that Starfleet can understand a phenomena but can't replicate it. You're asking way too much of a small science vessel stranded in the Delta Quadrant.
That's the pint I am trying to make. You will not get his consent. Ever. He doesn't want to die. Just because you clone someone doesn't mean that logically they're going to go "Oh, well I guess, I can die if it means that another version of me lives." He was acting on a survival instinct. He's not going to override that just because there's a clone. Which means you must still make the decision that Janeway made. You STILL MUST decide whether to kill Tuvix or let him live. Your cloning idea might be a nice idea but that's all it is. An idea. When put into practice it immediately falls apart because you're back to the same argument that was made at the start. Do you have the right to execute one man to save the lives of two others? The issue of the episode isn't "Tuvix is a unique lifeform and then must be saved". It's "Do you have the right to kill someone in order to save others?" If you add a transporter clone into that mix the question doesn't change.
The transporter clone option is a nice idea but that's all it is. An idea. There is no situation in which you can put it into practice and have it be a solution to the problem.
No, I'm saying by the time of Voyager this teleporter clone technology could very well have been figured out. It seems a wasted opportunity to not take advantage of that storyline and open up anyone more ethical dilemmas.
I see absolutely no reason why not.
I can't imagine why he wouldn't be in favor of the plan, especially since he is half Vulcan. It's a very logical solution to the issue.
Again I see absolutely no reason not to.
There's no reason he'd have to...
Of course, but this way they can all coexist. I see it as an absolute win win for everyone.
I definitely disagree. The argument/dilemma is inclusive of the cost of Tuvix, my solution preserves Tuvix. I'm not sure you understand what I'm proposing or are just not accepting that in this case there is no real death of anyone.
Simply sedate Tuvix, do the clone, do the split and revive whichever Tuvix is left. And now all three exist simultaneously and all that's lost to all of them is a case of missing time.
When you can simultaneously preserve the life, absolutely!
Transporter clones are not that simple. When they occur it's because of a strange anomaly. Just because something does happen doesn't mean that they'll be able to recreate it. Everytime they've happened it's been either because of situations beyond their control or due to a complete accident.
I have literally told you why. You keep ignoring it. You cannot use transporter clones to solve this problem when the problem is "do you have the right to kill them". A transporter clone does NOTHING other than add another person to kill. Just because you have a backup doesn't mean you suddenly are granted free murder rights.
He was also half-vulcan during his freakout on the bridge. Logic dictates to get your crewmen back. You are in stranded space. You are now relying on one individual to take the responsibilities of two roles. It is logical to separate Tuvix. Loved ones got their loved ones back, the responsibilities were no longer collated into a single person, and a lack of complex/new biology makes it easier for Sick Bay. It is not logical to run around on the bridge screaming for people to not kill you. Logic doesn't seem to make much difference to Tuvix. That was also established in the episode itself where he acted based off of hunches and thoughts, not facts and opinion. Moreover, this is a survival mechanism. HE doesn't want to die. Just because someone else is going to live his life doesn't mean anything. He isn't the one who is going to live that life. You are not giving the emotional situation here the weight it overwhelmingly deserves. Especially when the character never acted logical.
You know, except for the Tuvix that you have to kill. A decision that is now made WAY more cold by using a transporter clone. Janeway was put in a tough decision and had to make a rough call. The option you're providing turns Janeway into a coldblooded killer who has already pre-emptively decided to kill but wants to have her cake and eat it too. I find it way more fucked up to have her resigned to already killing a man instead of being choked up making that decision.
No, that is not the argument and has never been the argument. The argument has always been "Does Janeway have the right to kill Tuvix?" That is literally the argument that's made in the episode. Just because you're cloning one and being able to keep Tuvix doesn't suddenly mean that you're still not killing a sentient creature.
Then, even though there wasn't a clone, Janeway was in the right.
100% she was perfectly justified.
As far as killing a sentient being - I'm not sure a sedated existence counts as an existence much less a sentient one.
We simply disagree on this. The argument is exactly whether or not the life of Tuvix is worth the cost of two lives... sure other arguments are presented as with any dilemma but it boils down to the value of the two crew mates. Janeway absolutely has every right to ensure the lives of her crew. So while it was addressed directly in the episode it was one of the weaker dilemmas of the show. As captiaiher priority is always her crew, Tuvix was not her crew. I am not sure why you seem to disagree but we will have to end it there.
Yeah, we will have to end it there because you're just ignoring half of what I'm saying and ignoring the episode itself.
I disagree because you're just objectively wrong. The literal argument made in the episode is that what Janeway is doing is wrong. It has nothing to do with wiping out his unique experience. It's the fact that he doesn't want to die. That's the literal words he uses. "I don't want to die." Both Tuvix and Kes talk to Janeway about whether or not he should die. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a version of him will continue to exist.
Take care, wish you the best, but I am beyond done.
I never said it was about wiping out his own uniquely existence. And I didn't ignore half of what you said I agree with most of it and didn't feel the need to repeatedly agree.
If I'm so objectively wrong then you're very much just as wrong since we agreed so much. Heck I even agree it's his desire to live that would convince him to consent, because he does in my scenario.
It almost like your wanted to argue. You need to relax it's a show meant to be enjoyed. I simply made the case that a new avenue was available and it could have opened the doors to more. I get you disagree. But no reason to be upset.
I don't think I'll be crossing paths with you again, this reminded me too much of reddit so I'll be leaving this server. Thank you.
Thomas Riker was created through a complete freak accident involving a distortion field that reflected a transporter beam in the exact right way to duplicate Will Riker. It's not something that be done easily at will.
Now cloning and memory implantation are completely possible as well, like that one TNG episode where they make a clone of Kahless or that one very dumb ENT episode where there's a clone of Trip. I'm not sure, but cloning is probably illegal by the time of Voyager, since genetic augmentation is completely illegal throughout the Federation.
But the main problem is that nothing other than killing Tuvix would have satiated Janeway's bloodlust. For real, she's like the most evil person in that entire show.