• Adkml [he/him]
      ·
      9 months ago

      "I support the fascistsdoing a genocide because they're aligned with us and do our bidding" is the kind of honesty we're looking for from liberals on foreign policy.

      Genuinely, thank you for your honesty. Can you please tell the rest of the libs to communicate like this and we wouldn't be as mean to them.

    • Jack.@lemmy.ml
      ·
      9 months ago

      So you support Israel committing genocide in Palestine because they lean west. Way to go lil bro

        • Black AOC@lemmygrad.ml
          ·
          9 months ago

          Is there a single western civilization that wasn't built in the flesh, bones, blood, and bile of the colonized tho? Like, one.

          • Count042@lemmy.ml
            ·
            edit-2
            9 months ago

            Ireland, though they are extremely supportive of Palestine.

            They understand what it takes to get a boot off of your neck.

            • Evilsandwichman [none/use name]
              ·
              9 months ago

              Weeeeeeell.....I like the Irish and I think they've been awesome all around (the IRA and their support for Palestine), but even by their mythology they apparently did colonize their lands ages ago; something about defeating the Tuatha De Danann who themselves defeated the Fir Bolg and the Fomorians. The De Danann, Fir Bolg and Fomorians are depicted as inhuman beings but I personally think these were peoples who lived in extremely ancient Ireland who were defeated by the ancestors of modern day Irish people, but then, this would have been quite a few thousand years ago anyway and holding it against them would be silly (basically it was so long ago that it's not even concrete whether this myth has any basis in reality and certainly no trace of those peoples, their culture and their civilizations still exist; also even if you decide to believe the myth has some basis in reality behind it, Irish culture has not been a culture of colonizers for the last several thousand years).

              • Vncredleader [he/him]
                ·
                9 months ago

                That's not really a culture of colonizers even during the height of Ancient Erin. A possible analog for a past group that very well could be a stand-in for inter proto-Irish conflicts as much as inter Gaelic ones is so tenuous at best. Most cultures have something like this, and it would be tantamount to saying there was an inherent colonial culture in the Ho-Chunk people because the Wąge-rucge man-eaters might be a cultural memory of another tribe their ancestors fought against.

                There is a world of difference between human migration and conflicts arising therein and what we would identify as colonialism. Why even bring it up as such? Plus the Tuatha De Danann from even a quick search seem to be theorized to be Gaelic gods recontextualized into a post-Christianization culture. So it is literally not even from a culture of colonizers, but the reformatting of their own beliefs to a context of a cultural conversion. They seem to have come to mean "folk" or people much later and originally the term implied godliness. And then there is the PIE stuff and war between gods with humans in the middle which is foundational to a ton of places meaning it could either be remnants of a way more ancient myth shared with the Vedic and Norse etc, or a recontextualization of unique traditions subconsciously along the same lines as more eastern Europeans and Indo-European cultures. Least that's how I view the Iliad elements in Irish myth, maybe a shared tradition or more likely later writers put characters and stories into a structure they already knew, ie the most recited myth in Europe.

                We really need to be careful with history and modern terminology/conceptions. Cultures did not really remove one another necessarily, nor can we accurately talk about Bronze-Age and earlier cultures in strictly defined terms. We use names given to types of pottery we find to describe a general human presence in a large area across thousands of years. It is broad and ambiguous on purpose. Hell even more recent cases like the Germanic "colonization" of Celtic England is WAY more ambiguous than previous historians thought.

                For that history and a good object lesson on how complicated human migration is to decode there is a great video by CambrianChronicles on Brythonic Britons and how they never disappeared https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FHRTpEhaAs

                And that's not to say that there was not a colonization and resistance in that case, far from it. There we have a material understanding of both cultures that can be defined even if the lines between the people of them is nonexistent in a practical sense. CambrianChronicles has several videos including one I LOVE on Arthur that drive home how originally Welsh/Briton Arthur was essentially a propaganda character for anti-imperialist movements. My point is the distinctions quickly disappear and framing there as being such a thing as "culture of colonizers" in a time when people hardly if at all identified themselves as having a culture is silly, applying it as far back as the etymological history and patchwork shifts in linguistic groups of the Bronze age is downright ahistoric. Especially with Celts, the very definition of which is hotly debated.

                Another good POV is the short but wonderful history of the Bronze Age Collapse "1177: the year civilization ended" which shows some amazing research on how crises cause mass migration and why old models of how ancient Greeks came to Greece are pretty off base, with what was thought to be an invasion from the west by the Dorians might've been large refugee movements from Asia Minor which coincided with populations from Mycenean Greece fleeing eastward due to their problems. Heck the Sea Peoples are very possibly a phenomenon of various refugee crises and/or desperate moves by kingdoms we know for sure about trying to stay alive during what must've felt like an apocalypse.

  • sheppard@feddit.uk
    ·
    edit-2
    9 months ago

    The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is much more nuanced. Both countries' current heads of state are kinda like "all this land is my country's, the other country should not exist." It's unclear who is right.

    The Russo-Ukranian conflict is clear. One leader is claiming the land of the other, the other just want it back. Ukraine's government is not claiming half of Russia.

    • bdonvr@thelemmy.club
      ·
      edit-2
      9 months ago

      "Unclear who is right"

      No it's pretty clear, out with the colonizer government. How is this a question?

    • reverendz@lemmygrad.ml
      ·
      9 months ago

      It isn’t that nuanced. The colonized, subjugated population is rising up rather than laying down to continue getting slaughtered.

      Liberate Palestine.

    • pancake@lemmygrad.ml
      ·
      9 months ago

      Palestine has attacked territory that was assigned to Palestine by the UN in 1947. The UN also makes it very clear that a country may lawfully recover occupied territory "by any means, including armed force". UN laws are thus very clear: Ukraine and Palestine can recover territories by force. Now, that doesn't mean you should support them in their struggle to do so, but if you don't, it must be for some other reason (e.g., Israel taking over would constitute a huge strategic gain for the US, while Russia taking over would destabilize the world and thus benefit small or weakly aligned players).

      • sartalon@futurology.today
        ·
        9 months ago

        Wait, what!? How would this be a "huge strategic gain for the U.S."?

        You could argue that it's a proxy conflict between the West and radicalized Muslim states. Sure. I would even listen to a discussion about rich elites using governments to keep areas destabilized in order to further their own fortunes.

        But saying that somehow the U.S. would gain a huge strategic advantage is reaching.

        What would the strategic value be? Is there oil there? Would they put a base there that somehow had more capabilities than facilities they already have in the area?

        This isn't 5D chess. This is two cultures that refuse to get along, being supported openly, and behind closed doors by larger nations.

        Israel hates it's neighboring countries for good reason. Those countries hate Israel for good reasons.

        The human rights violations are disgusting and I support the freeing of Palestine.

        But when you do shit like what the Hamas just did, you destroy any sort of moral high ground you may have had. Two wrongs don't make a right, no matter what your culture is.

        You can't divorce Hamas from Palestine either, like some commentors are trying to do.

        Tribalism at its worst.

    • Cyclohexane@lemmy.mlM
      ·
      9 months ago

      all this land is my country's, the other country should not exist.

      One of those countries is an ethno-religious state that is exclusive of the other. Can you guess which one?

      If you are an ethno-religious exclusivist who says "your country shouldn't exist only mine!" and I am a country that multi-religious, and say "actually my country should be the prevailing one, not your exclusivist one", you gotta realize those two are massively different, unlike you portray.

      The Russo-Ukranian conflict is clear. One leader is claiming the land of the other

      Russia's original pretext for the war is not about territorial gains. It was supposedly regarding Ukraine's attack on Donetsk, Luhansk, and ethnic Russian populations in general (such as the Odessa massacre), what they also called "de-nazification" of the Ukrainian government, and Ukraine's bid to join NATO. This is easily verifiable, but I can provide you a sources on this if you doubt me.

      I am not claiming what Russia is saying is true, but it is not what you make it seem to make your argument.

    • ComradeChairmanKGB@lemmygrad.ml
      ·
      9 months ago

      It’s unclear who is right.

      https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184195/

      1. Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for their independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle;

      Seems pretty clear.

  • Neshura@bookwormstory.social
    ·
    9 months ago

    ho boy, here we go again.

    At this point in time that conflict has been going on for so long, I have no clue anymore who started it. So all I can do is judge both sides by their current actions without historical justification which, to me, results in fanatical religious fascists fighting fanatical religious fascists with neither side caring for civilian casualties. Not exactly a situation in which I'd support any side tbh.

    • ComradeChairmanKGB@lemmygrad.ml
      ·
      edit-2
      9 months ago

      At this point in time that conflict has been going on for so long, I have no clue anymore who started it.

      You know very well who started it. You just want to pretend that historical facts are lost to the sands of time because they're damaging to your centrist bullshit.

      https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184195/