Permanently Deleted
Solidarity with all anarchist comrades who have to suffer the libs co-opting their movement.
That and also “haha anarchism no rules” is another one that irritates me every time it comes up
I have considered myself an anarchist communist for almost 20 years now, but in the last 5 years or less, something has just gone seriously wrong with anarchists online. Outright anticommunism, preferring the US government to MLs. It's not the anarchism I knew. I don't know how much is new anarchists holding on to their former liberalism, and how much is disinfo of one kind or another.
I'm coming to consider myself somewhere between anarchists and MLs now, anyway (somewhere around Bookchinite communalism, Apoism, or council communism), but I can't say this hasn't been one of the reasons.
I’m gonna disagree with some people here and say this isn’t the anarchists’ faults, it’s genuine spook shit where the political establishment felt threatened by a rising left tide so they’re trying to drive a wedge between different groups and promote sectarianism. There isn’t a unified left party now like there was with the Panthers, all of our modern success has been disorganized, pan-left movements with no real organization. The tactics to disrupt it have to change so they’re trying to play up the lefty infighting to keep us from actually coalescing into a cohesive front.
Don’t hate your comrades and remember that anything not happening in real life should be incredibly suspect
I'm an anarchist, and online I'm fine to talk to MLs, and I've learned a lot about anti imperialism from them, but IRL none of the local ML or Trotskyist groups are worth organizing with, since they're (true to stereotype) control freaks. The exception is a local university ML group that runs along anarchist lines and has a libertarian bent because of its abolitionist politics.
I don't think it's an op, I think there are genuine differences between anarchists and marxists (especially the older ones, pro prison ones and electoral entryists) that get exaggerated in the internet's acoustics of conflict.
There's definitely been a serious liberal co-opting of online anarchist communities in the last couple years
A huge amount of it is disinfo. There is a campaign that is based in the premise "anarchism is realcommunism". By making this assertion they can claim MLs are not communists and simply claim they are not infighting but shutting out MLs from the REAL communists.
This extends into the "tankie" language, which we all know is just anti-communism. But within the new-logic they have created they can claim it is not anti-communism because "MLs are not communists only anarchists are communists".
It's anti communism cleverly hedged inside the premise of MLs not being real communism. It plays wonderfully into the typical moralising shit that liberals do and their desire to take the highest ground in every single topic. It plays into virtue signalling behaviour and it absolutely is part of an intelligence op. It is the kind of thing that has been carefully thought out and planned around meeting tables and focus groups.
I think it's just mostly the huge semantic umbrella of the label, similarly to the term "socialist" (or shit, even "marxist" and "communist" these days). like ML, or MLM comes with a stricter set of assumptions, whereas anarchist is a more inclusive term that can range anywhere from generic internet anti-establishment rage to literal antifa supersoldiers holding autonomous communities together with sweat and blood
a good way to filter the nerds out is literally just discard the opinion of anyone who unironically says the terms "tankie" or "anarkiddie". you'll still have people acting sus and complaining about "the anarchists" or "the stalinists" like it's still 1930's Spain but at least they're easier to spot when you're filtering out most of the sludge
anyone not looking to at least attempt left unity and post-struggle session cuddles in this day and age are just in it for the aesthetic and think posting epic political compass memes is the height of leftism
:left-unity-4:
I always found council communism to be a confusing one because people say they're against Soviet communism, but Soviet communism just translated to council communism.
I guess it has to do with the inclusion of the party in the council process? They're organized pretty similarly from what I've read too.
tbh this is in no way a new development, there's just new topics where it's being revealed - and in new media.
Leftist anticommunism has been the rule in the United States since the 50s, anarchists included. The only "acceptable" socialist was one who would parrot the US State Department, CIA, and related organs of imperialist power, or who would question that narrative without attaching any action or organization to it. It was even virtuous to repeat imperialist narratives, just as it is now. Every absurd, inconsistent dichotomy described by Parenti was repeated by left anti-communists unquestioningly. Whether from a position of earnest propaganda or fear of being delegitimized doesn't really matter given its net effect: support for the US regime-change apparatus.
At the same time, those who did materially opposed imperialism were targeted for destruction by that same apparatus. The assassinations of civil rights organizers, blacklisting of socialists, infiltration, criminalization, and jailing of anti-war environmentalists.
This is why building power and organization is so important: what we create must withstand that violence, because it is coming. No single leader must be too important. No betrayal too off-putting. We must build a self-sustaining movement focused on action to oppose these monstrous crimes and push capitalists to the point that they force a revolution through their violence in response to our very reasonable demands - safe work, housing, food, medicine, anti-war, and dramatic action on climate change.
I think it's because "Anarchism" to many people isn't presented as a well thought out and theorized idealogy with its own philosophers and writers, but rather just "Wow Anarchy cool like I saw on TV!".
So you get a lot of people into it that have no actual idea the history behind anarchist thought yet still want to call themselves the Cool Word, like ancaps as well.
The Anarchism that leftist politics use and the Anarchism that your average person uses are drastically different definitions entirely.
I don't think that's true. I'm quite elderly, and online anarchists circa 2005 were distinctly not like today's. Even on boards that were nominally mutualist/"left-libertarian", there was a sense that conflict with MLs was a conflict "within the family", and that the bourgeois state was a worse threat.
"but even I realize the CIA isn't as bad as tankies say."
:data-laughing:
As an anarchist, I love it when the literal CIA installs a dictatorship in my country. I think it's based and anti-authoriarian
Anyone that's actually been in a demsoc party knows full well they absolutely are not demsocs as they collaborate with MLs all the time quite happily. They are radlibs, terminally online "anarchists" and a few crypto fascists in hiding.
These "anarchists" are terminally online. They don't do anything offline. They call themselves anarchists but it is entirely aesthetic.
In terms of what their actual function in the current conditions they are a crowdsourced disinformation machine slowing the propagation of correct leftist thought and in-particular anti-imperialism online. They do nothing offline and have no impact on offline organising, it is a terminally online condition.
In the US? I'm not American and can only speak for conditions in the UK. I don't really know any British MLs that aren't actively organising.
If you're not organising I find it hard to consider you an ML. A sympathiser perhaps but if you're not actively participating you're hardly a committed marxist-leninist.
Don't get me wrong. Plenty of them are doing shit I fundamentally think is a waste of time but they're actually doing shit at least.
Damn, a Tiananmen Massacre 2.0? If only there was evidence of much worse crimes already being committed by someone else in Peru. I don't remember who it was, but I know that his daughter is also involved in Peruvian politics.
OK, so this is why people shit on "anarchists." It really does attract these libs. The worst thing that "MLs" say are still better than this.
Same, the anarchists I know IRL are cool.
But people who learn about leftism via the internet tend to gravitate to the anarchist label first because it hasn't been quite as sullied by propaganda as "communist" has. So you get a bunch of radlibs calling themselves anarchists.
I want Left Unity, but all Reddit “anarchists” get the wall.
His party openly praises totalitarian dictator Lenin
:lenin-pogger:
I'll join. All reddit anarchist spaces are incredibly cursed.
Ban people like this and cross post to other less bad anarchist/libsoc subs are all i got but I'll let ya know if I think of more.
The top post on r/anarchism is the same as here, laughing at this shitty comment.
I seriously don't get what people's problem here is with the main anarchist subs.
also a bunch of upvoted comments there are about how this must be a tankie troll trying to make anarchism look bad. Huge persecution complex and terminally online "the ENEMY TANKIES are behind this " reddit energy
Well you are responding to a comment that attacks a quote that the majority of r/anarchism agree with as being a deal breaker for left unity . So here you have a problem with that sub. It is a community where "Everyone who has a positive opinion of Stalin, Mao, Castro ,USSR, China isnt a comrade or a leftist but a red fascist and Lenin was a totallitarian dictator" IS the majority opinion. And see anyone holding those views as an enemy or at the very least never an ally. . Even if you agree with it personaly but dont go yelling about it around here cause you would get banned ,you really dont get why people here have a huge problem with it and consider it a toxic and performative community that rejected any left unity?. You probably dont agree but the demonization and hate towards every and any ML leader, project,party at any time this last century is the definition of anticommunism for the vast majority here and irreconsiable with left unity.
And before you go there, tho this community leans ML it isnt even remotely in the same stratosphere of hostility to any anarchist tendency or take that r/anarchism is about marxist lenninist ones
a quote that the majority of r/anarchism agree with as being a deal breaker for left unity .
Wow i can't quite put my finger on why Lenin is disliked in anarchist circles, he never gave any reason for that. Neither did Stalin, nor Castro, right? I don't get it why it's so surprising that anarchists look with suspicion at people who idolize leaders who repressed anarchists.
It is a community where “Everyone who has a positive opinion of Stalin, Mao, Castro ,USSR, China isnt a comrade or a leftist but a red fascist and Lenin was a totallitarian dictator” IS the majority opinion.
Nah, the majority opinion is more like “Everyone who approves of the atrocities committed against anarchists Stalin, Mao, Castro ,USSR, China committed isnt a comrade or a leftist but a red fascist and Lenin was a totallitarian dictator”. Which some MLs seem to understand somehow.
Even if you agree with it personaly but dont go yelling about it around here cause you would get banned ,you really dont get why people here have a huge problem with it and consider it a toxic and performative community that rejected any left unity?
I don't agree with it (or at least not to that degree) but yes, i don't see how there is a problem with it considering MLs are welcome as long as they're not there to stir shit.
You probably dont agree but the demonization and hate towards every and any ML leader, project,party at any time this last century is the definition of anticommunism for the vast majority here and irreconsiable with left unity.
Maybe it is, but then again ML leaders going at the throat of anarchists projects all the time is anticommunism as well, somehow this never gets mentioned in the context of anticommunism.
And before you go there, tho this community leans ML it isnt even remotely in the same stratosphere of hostility to any anarchist tendency or take that r/anarchism is about marxist lenninist ones
I agree, but don't act like it was always like this. Big up to the mods though for making this a place that actually kinda looks like one where left unity is achievable.
Wow i can’t quite put my finger on why Lenin is disliked in anarchist circles, he never gave any reason for that. Neither did Stalin, nor Castro, right? I don’t get it why it’s so surprising that anarchists look with suspicion at people who idolize leaders who repressed anarchists.
Dislike =/= specificaly holding an opinion on Lenin/Castro being totallitarian dictators. Bonus points for the opinion of them being no different than the rest. Also positive opinion =/= idolizing.
“Everyone who approves of the atrocities committed against anarchists Stalin, Mao, Castro ,USSR, China committed isnt a comrade or a leftist but a red fascist and Lenin was a totallitarian dictator”. Which some MLs seem to understand somehow.
Thats your take, not the subreddit's and even then by extension its the opinion of these projects and leaders being red fascist and you are not a leftist if you disapprove the aspects that had to do with the most supression of anarchists . Really the expectation to not be considered an enemy isnt just disagreement with most of the supression of anarchists . That any ML that doesnt agree with lets say how kronstadt was handled but still judges the majority of Lenin, Mao, Stalin ,China the USSR as a positive and upholds them and the ideology is workable. The expectation is the absence of any of that and the rejection of them. Also this is isnt finding some common ground and the side most at fault admitting mistakes. Its dogmaticaly adopting a blanket statement for hundreds of conflicts around history as it being the totallitarian black and white aggression of one side (which i admit holds the majority of the blame). Just couse anarchists will hold that as historical and just because its actually easily closer to the truth than the "lmao trotsky did nothing wrong get dubbed anarchists" take it doesnt mean that especially case by case there isnt a more ,and im sad to say this, centrist and nuanced historical truth. I do believe that something like the purges of thousands of anarchists as counterrevolutionaries under stalin is a much,much more one sided blame and no context needed than something like the Spanish civil War.
Maybe it is, but then again ML leaders going at the throat of anarchists projects all the time is anticommunism as well, somehow this never gets mentioned in the context of anticommunism.
Again im not here to argue history. Simple truth is that begining your unmovable position that must be accepted at "MLs unilateraly initiated black and white violence at anarchist projects all the time" you set your self up for any disagreement to be interpreted as "supporting the slaughter and repression of anarchists/agreeing with it on principle". Personaly i think that i dont need even a couple of fingers to count any instances of "mls being by far in the wrong went at the throat and ruined any anarchist project just cause they were anarchists" and even find examples of the opposite that wouldnt fit a "justified anarchist freedom fghters against the totallitarian state" easy way out of being anti-communist, even if i would need a thousand arms to count any unjust supression of an anarchist under an ML project. So again self flagellation after accepting a disney villain like description of any and all possible anarchist-ml violent conflicts in history isnt happening and even if it was it wouldnt be enough ,not for normal anarchists, but for thr specific online community we are talking about
I assume most people here don't go on the main anarchist subs and draw their conclusions primarily from dunk posts like this one.
The person in question frequently posts in :funny-clown-hammer:
Other gems- On someone calling the Black Panthers cool:
Being a North Korea and Mao Zedong praising tankie is not cool
On Angela Davis voting for Joe Biden:
What? She still supported a genocidal empire for several years, just because she has one correct opinion doesn’t mean she’s a leftist
The guy literally only posts to call people tankies, must be a troll.
The guy is calling Iran and Syria "tankie states". This is 100% a bit.
He posts wild shit like
I’ve seen tankies call Azov Battallion fascist, even though there are many dem socs and anarchists in the brigade
and people on the tankiejerk sub upvote it.
Killing [fascists] without trial (like the Soviet Union did during WW2 Eastern Front) is authoritarian and some tankie bs
+19 karma
The US actually punished Nazi leaders, while the USSR kept trying to smuggle them out of Germany to lead the Soviet military and the Warsaw pact. It was called Operation Paperclip, look it up
+40
He also calls some trot a tankie red fash for shitting on r/neoliberal and gets upvoted while the trots is downvoted for trying to explain that trots aren't tankies, actually. Trots hoisted by their own petard, lmao.
I think this dweeb's sincere. I've seen enough shitty profiles to say this one's got the serious actually bad ultra-sectarian :brainworms:
Sure, half of his posts look like usual vaushite anticommunism, but stuff like "look up Operation Paperclip" is too specific to not be trolling.
Vaushkyites literally believe Lenin and Mao are on their side even though the only side Lenin and Mao would have them on is the firing wall. It's fully within their capabilities to have the correct points of information and data then completely warp or outright ignore it to fit their worldview.
Funny thing, the guy is pretty heavily downvoted across the board on r/vaush while the same bangers about red fash Black Panthers are upvoted on r/tankiejerk. I guess that sub is more bappers than vaushits.
Maybe those clowns feel attacked because they think they're the real red fash.
If they are it's really good. Because that Angela Davis post sent me to the hospital with an aneurysm.
you underestimate the number of online radlibs whose entire "ideology" revolves around yelling about Tankies and feeling persecuted
