Fair enough, i edited it. I ripped those straight from the men's liberation dictionary.
It's why I added the caviat that women hold these traits as well, as well as them showing differently in different people.
The only issue I have with that type of thing is Maurice was specifically asking for traits to strive for. As far as mens lib goes it's incredibly important to be able to take traits that are traditionally seen as "manly" and show that everyone can display these traits while showing how these traits in excess lead to toxic masculine behaviors. I get why the rule exists though and if I need to edit it further I will.
I think you're misunderstanding the Menlib dictionary's intent. It wasn't trying to uphold those qualities as positive, but rather as "traditional". You missed this quote.
Some examples of the attributes, behaviors, and roles which are traditionally viewed as masculinity can be found here (5/20/21: link broken) under Strength, Honor, and Action
It's great you're trying to help a comrade, and other stuff you've said has been helpful for the OP. But I think you're misunderstanding the theory of menslib.
Edit
The only issue I have with that type of thing is Maurice was specifically asking for traits to strive for
So I didn't really get the point across like I wanted to and really fucked up in how I delivered it on the earlier comment so I'm going to try and explain it better here for both Maurice and for anyone else who is struggling with what being "masculine" means because I truly think rejecting toxic masculinity is one thing, but embracing your own (whatever that ends up being, it could be anything) is just as important because if you don't have direction you end up defaulting to social expectations which at this point are largely patriarchal.
There isn't (or, shouldn't be) a single definition of masculinity. However, as I mentioned above, traditionally masculine traits such as strength, honor, and courage tend to be incredibly purvasive. As things stand, they usually lead men down the road into toxic masculine behavior though. Strength can lead to voilence, isolation, and unemotional behavior. Honor can lead to aspects of coldness and unemotional behavior. "Courage" can push men towards hyper aggression.
However, these traits, while not uniform or universal, can and should be used in a positive manner.
"Courage" can be doing an activity that you have interest in that can be seen as "not manly". "Honor" can be owning up to mistakes (like hopefully I am by explaining myself further. Lol).
These traits aren't inherently cis or masculine. As I said before there isn't/shouldn't be any uniform depiction of masculinity. However, whenever the topic is brought up about masculinity these "traditionally masculine" traits always make their way into the conversation and should be used as a jumping off point to show there is no uniform masculinity and the social constructs of it are a fuck.
Fair enough, i edited it. I ripped those straight from the men's liberation dictionary.
It's why I added the caviat that women hold these traits as well, as well as them showing differently in different people.
The only issue I have with that type of thing is Maurice was specifically asking for traits to strive for. As far as mens lib goes it's incredibly important to be able to take traits that are traditionally seen as "manly" and show that everyone can display these traits while showing how these traits in excess lead to toxic masculine behaviors. I get why the rule exists though and if I need to edit it further I will.
I think you're misunderstanding the Menlib dictionary's intent. It wasn't trying to uphold those qualities as positive, but rather as "traditional". You missed this quote.
It's great you're trying to help a comrade, and other stuff you've said has been helpful for the OP. But I think you're misunderstanding the theory of menslib.
Edit
Fair enough. I can see what you're trying to do.
So I didn't really get the point across like I wanted to and really fucked up in how I delivered it on the earlier comment so I'm going to try and explain it better here for both Maurice and for anyone else who is struggling with what being "masculine" means because I truly think rejecting toxic masculinity is one thing, but embracing your own (whatever that ends up being, it could be anything) is just as important because if you don't have direction you end up defaulting to social expectations which at this point are largely patriarchal.
There isn't (or, shouldn't be) a single definition of masculinity. However, as I mentioned above, traditionally masculine traits such as strength, honor, and courage tend to be incredibly purvasive. As things stand, they usually lead men down the road into toxic masculine behavior though. Strength can lead to voilence, isolation, and unemotional behavior. Honor can lead to aspects of coldness and unemotional behavior. "Courage" can push men towards hyper aggression.
However, these traits, while not uniform or universal, can and should be used in a positive manner.
"Courage" can be doing an activity that you have interest in that can be seen as "not manly". "Honor" can be owning up to mistakes (like hopefully I am by explaining myself further. Lol).
These traits aren't inherently cis or masculine. As I said before there isn't/shouldn't be any uniform depiction of masculinity. However, whenever the topic is brought up about masculinity these "traditionally masculine" traits always make their way into the conversation and should be used as a jumping off point to show there is no uniform masculinity and the social constructs of it are a fuck.
Sorry. It was fine. But ya I agree with what you said. I think that courage and strength, in general terms, can be positive.
No you're good I think I explained it out way better after you pointed it out. Thanks :heart-sickle: