honey is bad because beekeeping under capitalism is bad for the local species the bees displace and because it's abusive to the bees somehow. Scavenging honey is bad because it's theft
shrimp are just sea bugs and as a liberal I insist you eat the bugs.
can't believe bees complain about the free housing, healthcare, being moved from food source to food source, the dang ol bees get better treatment than we do :yes-honey-left:
we jest, but there are actually ecological concerns with industrialized honey production but as usual the real problem is capitalism and we could absolutely do beekeeping in a harmonious way that some vegans would probably still be mad about but reasonable ones would be fine with.
i'm :10000-com: okay with ending the worst aspects of animal exploitation but there's always things like eggs and honey where I find it equitable to end the capitalist model of production and then it's more like a symbiotic relationship and vegans seem really extreme for their refusal to consider it
like "eat the bug" meme posts, chickens will eat those bugs and fuckin' love it and make eggs for us. Oh they're bred to make too many eggs and it's bad for their bones? umm maybe don't do that? breed them to produce fewer eggs? Even if it's a much reduced number it's still better to me than "eat those bugs, peasant." Oh you 'have to' grind up male chicks? uhhh maybe don't do that? 1) they only do that now because males take a few weeks longer to get to a weight where the meat is worth it, 2) there's methods of in-ovo sexing currently available. But oh woops it costs more to do that, which is why it isn't more wide spread. I've never heard an argument against eggs that is more involved than "these problems caused by capitalism..."
Breeding is eugenics and it's fucking gross. No amount of forced labor is okay. So long as we exploit nonhumans, we will construct ideologies to devalue them.
I don't know how to convince you to care about someone other than yourself
of all the omnis making increasingly desperate arguments on these threads in unbelievably transparent attempts to shut up their own consciences screaming at them, youre the one im most convinced is gonna go vegan eventually
it may not be for a while, and before you get there youre probably gonna do an extra-smug "haha i showed that vegan loser that said id turn vegan, im loving meat more than ever" phase that youll cringe at later, but its gonna happen im calling it
What should be done? Legitimately curious, because I'd assumed the strategy was to repair the harm done by eugenics and let the animals be free generations later. Won't the species die out if put back in the wild?
Animal ag isn't going to end overnight, I don't think. What's most likely to happen is that it will phase out over time. That means animals will unfortunately still get slaughtered at a fraction of their life. But if we want to begin ending production, we'll necessarily have to phase out forced artificial insemination and breeding, which means there will be less and less of these animals born. In this way, their population will decline. Those who aren't slaughtered (though it is likely most still will be) can be rescued and given medical treatment. Layer hens, for instance, can be given birth control so they don't lay so often. And what eggs they do lay can be fed back to them (this is a natural behavior for hens).
Some species will die out. Turkeys raised for slaughter grow so big, they literally cannot have sex. The only way these turkeys breed is through artificial insemination.
But our goal should not be to wipe out domesticated animals simply because they are often dependent or disabled. Rather, we should care for them to the best of our ability.
Sunaura Taylor wrote a really good book you might be interested in about the intersection of disability and animal rights. Give it a read if you get the chance:
Beasts of Burden (I can find you other formats too if epub doesn't work for you)
The red junglefowl from which chickens descend produces a handful of eggs yearly. it is nothing more than delusion to imagine that you could somehow make a perfectly fair solution wherein you exploit them for the tiny amount of eggs they naturally produce without it being fucked up somewhere along the line.
Not even getting into the fact that exploiting them in that way is simply wrong on its own
your right just destroy all coops and let the foxes and coyotes sort it out
edit:
In many areas, red junglefowl breed during the dry portion of the year, typically winter or spring. This is true in parts of India, Nepal, Thailand, Vietnam, and Laos.[10][16][17][26][27][28] However, year-round breeding by red junglefowl has been documented in palm-oil plantations in Malaysia[21] and also may occur elsewhere.[27] During the laying period, red junglefowl females lay an egg every day
literally an entire season of an egg per day, prior to selective breeding
issues from too many eggs is a result of calcium deficiency in diet which is A Solvable Problem and saying it's "impossible" to have a reasonable amount of egg production without it being "fucked up somewhere along the line" is just not rooted in reality
can’t believe bees complain about the free housing, healthcare, being moved from food source to food source, the dang ol bees get better treatment than we do
I used to volunteer at an apiary and go to industry conferences.
Bees are exploited because they are chattel. Their health is actually put in jeopardy because we breed them with low genetic diversity (certain traits make them easier to manage, like low aggression) and so they are more susceptible to colony collapse and varroa mites and such because of our interference.
Bees make their own housing, but we often deconstruct it for our own material benefit, like stealing their wax. They gather their own food, honey and pollen, which we steal for ourselves and replace with much less nutritious sugar water, which also leaves them weaker. Stealing their stores makes it harder for them to survive the winter as well.
Being moved is incredibly traumatic for bees. Many of them die in transportation. They get stressed about being in a strange places they don't recognize. Places they are shipped to pollinate very often have pesticides. Huge numbers of bees do not survive these chemicals. It changes depending on the year, but some beekeepers lose over half their hives, thousands to millions of bees.
Bees are sentient creatures. They do not deserve to be exploited by us.
honey is bad because beekeeping under capitalism is bad for the local species the bees displace and because it's abusive to the bees somehow. Scavenging honey is bad because it's theft
shrimp are just sea bugs and as a liberal I insist you eat the bugs.
can't believe bees complain about the free housing, healthcare, being moved from food source to food source, the dang ol bees get better treatment than we do :yes-honey-left:
we jest, but there are actually ecological concerns with industrialized honey production but as usual the real problem is capitalism and we could absolutely do beekeeping in a harmonious way that some vegans would probably still be mad about but reasonable ones would be fine with.
i'm :10000-com: okay with ending the worst aspects of animal exploitation but there's always things like eggs and honey where I find it equitable to end the capitalist model of production and then it's more like a symbiotic relationship and vegans seem really extreme for their refusal to consider it
like "eat the bug" meme posts, chickens will eat those bugs and fuckin' love it and make eggs for us. Oh they're bred to make too many eggs and it's bad for their bones? umm maybe don't do that? breed them to produce fewer eggs? Even if it's a much reduced number it's still better to me than "eat those bugs, peasant." Oh you 'have to' grind up male chicks? uhhh maybe don't do that? 1) they only do that now because males take a few weeks longer to get to a weight where the meat is worth it, 2) there's methods of in-ovo sexing currently available. But oh woops it costs more to do that, which is why it isn't more wide spread. I've never heard an argument against eggs that is more involved than "these problems caused by capitalism..."
Carnists do any amount of research before shooting off about how great it is to exploit sentient beings challenge
I know more than you
Read theory, lib
nothing I said about eggs is wrong or out of date so maybe you need to read more :^]
Breeding is eugenics and it's fucking gross. No amount of forced labor is okay. So long as we exploit nonhumans, we will construct ideologies to devalue them.
I don't know how to convince you to care about someone other than yourself
you will literally do all you can to think of any and every argument against a positive human-animal relationship
The relationship is oppressive in material reality. It doesn't matter how nice you paint it.
I'm done arguing with you
of all the omnis making increasingly desperate arguments on these threads in unbelievably transparent attempts to shut up their own consciences screaming at them, youre the one im most convinced is gonna go vegan eventually
it may not be for a while, and before you get there youre probably gonna do an extra-smug "haha i showed that vegan loser that said id turn vegan, im loving meat more than ever" phase that youll cringe at later, but its gonna happen im calling it
i'm eating eggs until eggs stop being made
i doubt it, but hmu when you wanna eat a bean
inshallah, comrade
better not eat wheat, corn, or potatoes then.
Don't pretend you give a shit
What should be done? Legitimately curious, because I'd assumed the strategy was to repair the harm done by eugenics and let the animals be free generations later. Won't the species die out if put back in the wild?
Animal ag isn't going to end overnight, I don't think. What's most likely to happen is that it will phase out over time. That means animals will unfortunately still get slaughtered at a fraction of their life. But if we want to begin ending production, we'll necessarily have to phase out forced artificial insemination and breeding, which means there will be less and less of these animals born. In this way, their population will decline. Those who aren't slaughtered (though it is likely most still will be) can be rescued and given medical treatment. Layer hens, for instance, can be given birth control so they don't lay so often. And what eggs they do lay can be fed back to them (this is a natural behavior for hens).
Some species will die out. Turkeys raised for slaughter grow so big, they literally cannot have sex. The only way these turkeys breed is through artificial insemination.
But our goal should not be to wipe out domesticated animals simply because they are often dependent or disabled. Rather, we should care for them to the best of our ability.
Sunaura Taylor wrote a really good book you might be interested in about the intersection of disability and animal rights. Give it a read if you get the chance:
Beasts of Burden (I can find you other formats too if epub doesn't work for you)
The red junglefowl from which chickens descend produces a handful of eggs yearly. it is nothing more than delusion to imagine that you could somehow make a perfectly fair solution wherein you exploit them for the tiny amount of eggs they naturally produce without it being fucked up somewhere along the line.
Not even getting into the fact that exploiting them in that way is simply wrong on its own
your right just destroy all coops and let the foxes and coyotes sort it out
edit:
literally an entire season of an egg per day, prior to selective breeding
issues from too many eggs is a result of calcium deficiency in diet which is A Solvable Problem and saying it's "impossible" to have a reasonable amount of egg production without it being "fucked up somewhere along the line" is just not rooted in reality
I'm done, don't respond to me
I used to volunteer at an apiary and go to industry conferences.
Bees are exploited because they are chattel. Their health is actually put in jeopardy because we breed them with low genetic diversity (certain traits make them easier to manage, like low aggression) and so they are more susceptible to colony collapse and varroa mites and such because of our interference.
Bees make their own housing, but we often deconstruct it for our own material benefit, like stealing their wax. They gather their own food, honey and pollen, which we steal for ourselves and replace with much less nutritious sugar water, which also leaves them weaker. Stealing their stores makes it harder for them to survive the winter as well.
Being moved is incredibly traumatic for bees. Many of them die in transportation. They get stressed about being in a strange places they don't recognize. Places they are shipped to pollinate very often have pesticides. Huge numbers of bees do not survive these chemicals. It changes depending on the year, but some beekeepers lose over half their hives, thousands to millions of bees.
Bees are sentient creatures. They do not deserve to be exploited by us.