Disclaimer: cis man here. just here to understand and learn, not to troll anyone. :transshork-happy:
I genuinely would like someone to explain to me why claiming/using pronouns for non-binary people is viewed as so important. I have nothing against that but, and I know it can sound like a chud argument, it seems "low priority" to me and I do not understand why some fight so hard for this. I mean fighting against discrimination, M4A to help people transitioning, the fact that 40% of the homeless youth in the US is LGBT, ... seem like more important fights to me.
And I know fighting for pronouns and the things I just listed is not incompatible. Still, I would be curious to know the history of how the pronouns became a revendication in the first place, and why they became such a big topic.
I was discussing this with a friend who pointed out that naming things is the very first step to recognizing they exist, the importance of linguistics in the way mentalities evolve. I also think it's something that libs in power can implement happily, appearing to fight actively for the community, without addressing the more complex issues. But neither of us really identifies as non-binary so I thought the best way to know more was to ask you directly.
PS: trans right are human rights
Because it's really easy and people can easily do something about it because the people are the problem. Anyone can use a different word, so it's raising awareness that makes it happen.
40% of LGBT youth is homeless? Well fuck. What am I supposed to do about it though, right now?
It's possible to advocate for multiple things that you believe in.
I was discussing this with a friend who pointed out that naming things is the very first step to recognizing they exist, the importance of linguistics in the way mentalities evolve. I also think it’s something that libs in power can implement happily, appearing to fight actively for the community, without addressing the more complex issues.
Yes and yes and yes, agreed.
As a cis dude, I found The Gender Accelerationist Manifesto to give a good perspective on non-binaryism and gender abolition.
Pronouns are one part of that fight. As you say, it’s something that the system can accommodate in the short term, as well as it being good bait for the right, so it has received prominence. That battle is now happening, so it’s one that must be fought.
We don’t always get to pick where fights happen. But when they do, you have to resist, or risk losing territory and suffering a defeat.
damn so many cissies here.
pronouns are just common decency. you wouldn't be running around calling people 'it' all day, right?
and yeah libs tend to focus on pronouns and simple gestures rather than comprehensive material change. that doesnt mean those things aren't important, its just they don't follow up on it
this would probably be better as a post in /c/askchapo. tbf, I don't see any rules saying "hey don't post questions, this isn't an educational space", but thats a pretty common rule in communities like ours. Just some feedback.
i mean you're right though. i don't think anyone is upset people have questions and want to learn its just a really common thing that wears me out. I wanna hang with homies and shitpost about not being straight.
Yes. That's why I put the disclaimer actually. I did not notice /c/askchapo existed, was asking the question in good faith, but knew this was probably not the kind of content this communities was made for. I checked the community rules before posting because I realized that, and it indeed seemed that my post was not breaking any so I went for it. I'll follow you advice next time
its all good. we just need to have dedicated places too you know? It's great that your an ally & want to learn more, this kind of just isn't the space for it.
@KingRalphus - can you add a rule about no educational questions here? thanks. :)
Disclaimer cis
I think that the reason you hear so much about it in particular as a trans issue is because it's one of the things the right really likes to insult or generally be chudy about, because that's so often attacked it's only natural that it's a point you hear them defend a lot.
You have a maggot's brain. Imagine if you always called all humans "human" and "it/itself" pronouns with the justification that names / vocal sounds are less important than "complex issues" like medicare for all.
"And I know fighting for pronouns and the things I just listed is not incompatible." Yet you're here asking the transes to do a little dance for you and remind you that using anyone's correct name and pronouns always costs a flat rate of zero American dollars and zero cents.
You mentioned how liberals use pronoun announcements to "appear to fight actively for the community, without addressing the more complex issues." This is true. For example, Kamala Harris has she/her in her twitter bio. You would probably see that in her bio and be suspicious, even as a cis person yourself... but you're not going to say or do shit about how she has materially hurt trans people.
We are only important to you when you can dunk on liberals or whoever. But when we need a tiny crumb of decency in the form of something akin to learning our god damn name, we are back in debate club, because you need to feel smart or rational or something. Using someone's pronouns is not "fighting for pronouns", that's as useless and self-congratulatory as saying you're "fighting for names" by using someone's new name.
This does not mean correct pronoun usage is the single sign that someone is Good, nor does it mean all pronouns should be purposefully disrespected.
What do you mean by "nonbinary pronouns", do you mean "they/them"? You use they pronouns multiple times with no issues in your OP, so it shouldn't be a problem for you. But not all nonbinary people use those, btw.
"Why did pronouns become such a big topic." Not even an exaggeration, the answer is: one hundred percent because of cis people.
Oh come on. You’re digging up a two month old post, where I was totally admitting my ignorance on the topic and was genuinely asking to be educated, and where I already had plenty of relevant and interesting answers. For what? Imputing motive, imagining what I think of Kamala Harris (seriously wtf?), and wasting your time in a rant. You may have had a bad day but it’s really pointless to take it out on me. I do not “need to feel smart” or “ask you to dance”. I am feeling dumb and ask you to teach me. And you are a bad teacher. Many people in the thread, seeing my good faith, helped a lib to better understand the topic. You did not help anybody - even yourself - at all here.
No I feel pretty helped knowing that you read my entire response.
Again a wild, wrong, assumption about what I might think or do, cause I didn't
Ok now I read the full response. I would feel helped if you read mine:
You seem to assume that I’m against the “fight” for pronouns (yes for me it’s a fight, even if it’s absurd, as absurd as the fight to be called by one’s correct name would be if it existed), and even sometimes seem to imply that I will refuse to use the correct pronouns until you explain me why I should.
But again I’m not asking you to dance or anything. Being called by the “correct” (I hope by the end of my answer you will understand why I use quotes) pronoun is obvious. But correct me if I’m wrong, trans people revendication for the use of “they” is pretty recent. I’m curious to learn more about how it appeared, when, etc...
I’m also thinking about “xe” or “ze”: it’s not like these pronouns have always existed as the “correct” ones while people refused to use them: these words were created and again I’m curious to know more about how they came to be.
For instance, in my mother tongue there was no gender neutral pronoun as “they” in English. So all pronouns that are specific to non binary people in my country are words that have been created pretty recently.
So basically I learned from other answers that calling this “low priority” was super dumb. But when I’m asking how and why this revendication came to be, I don’t know why you assume I have a maggot brain or I care about Kamala Harris because I’m cis.