This is fantastic news. They also said they will go to court over if WoTC try to “deauthorise” OGL 1.0a which is just epic.
Edit: The site went down lmao. Epic stuff.
Edit: BTW, Paizo is the company that also recognised their Union without requiring it to go to vote or hiring anti-union shitheads.
how incredibly pathetic to try to get between people enjoying pnprpgs and make money out of it, imagine looking at people making shit up at a table with friends and thinking "damn, how do i wet my beak here"
Well, what WotC is trying to do here is key to their expansion plans. The folks that run WotC right now previously worked for Amazon and Microsoft. They want to transfer tabletop gaming from its current revenue model to something much closer to a "live service" video game model. They want to move from selling a group of 5 people an average of 2-4 $50 books a year to a model of selling each of those people a $15 dollar a month subscription. Since they want to keep their new game backwards compatible, that means they prevent services that compete with their own online services from using both their new ruleset and previous ruleset (hence trying to revoke the current license). Otherwise, they can't charge as much as they'd like.
Yeah, instead of “pay once and own forever”, every capitalist wants you to “pay forever and own never”.
oh yeah, you're right, they're solving the "sorry i can't make tonight" game scheduling nightmare by just having all of us play from a patented fucking zoom call, but everyone beat them to the punch so they're trying to poison pill the OGL (from what i understood) to no longer cover stuff that isn't just a pdf (like online services), yeah brave plan, hope they choke; wotc didn't comment afaik because they haven't actually officially announced anything yet, but i hope this continues blowing up in their face
They were gonna livestream today but cancelled it last minute because of an unexpected leaked email and the subsequent massive cancellations of DNDBeyond subs.
There was a massive leaked email earlier today from an employee that said all the execs cared about is DNDBeyond subs and they considered the consumers just obstacles to be overcome to get their money. They also expected this to blow over by the weekend or something.
In response, the community decided en masse to delete their DNDBeyond subs leading to the site shutting down for a while. This is probably also the reason they cancelled the stream they had planned for today to explain the new OGL.
:think-about-it: ah the old 'can't break up with me if I unplug my telephone' move
They tried exactly this with 4E, and failed to ever get a virtual tabletop system off the ground.
Also I was in the job market at the time, and they were offering about a fourth as much as the going rate for the tech skills they wanted. This might have something to do with the failure.
I know. I love it.
Earlier today DNDBeyond got shut down too, but that was because way too many people were cancelling their subs.
Too cheap/broke to spend money on superfluous services gang stays winning.
JK, I have a Roll20 subscription :walter-breakdown:
Foundry is so heavy on resources tho lmao. My computer can barely keep up.
Check out 5e.tools , with the plugins you can drag and drop all the 5e ressources into roll20 for free
Earlier today DNDBeyond got shut down too, but that was because way too many people were cancelling their subs.
:sicko-wholesome:
God damn. Hasbro / Wizards could have remained profitable through the status quo, but nope, they got greedy and now look at what happens. Also when the website gets back up, I'm gonna pick up a Pathfinder Core Rulebook from their sale
No ethical consumption under capitalism, but some consumption is still better than others and fuck WOTC! :no-copyright:
I'll be playing 5e for probably the next year as I'm currently in a game and I really don't have time to join or dm another game, but I'm probably going to try a oneshot or two to practice
Apparently, this is all in preparation for 6E, and 5E, as many seem to argue, will have to remain under OGL 1.0a anyways. Who knows how it all ends up shaking out, but I think as long as you stop buying official WOTC items (inc. DNDBeyond), you’ll be gucci.
Yeah we are doing our own setting so we aren't giving WotC any money. I kinda am scared to start DMing with Pathfinder just because I'm not as familiar with the rules, but maybe after some 5e practice, I'll switch fully to Pathfinder.
I did and still kinda do want to run the Critical Role campaign they put out with Wizards earlier this year for some friends who like them. May still do that though as I already own that on DNDBeyond. Would definitly be a trial by fire, but hey, I gotta start somewhere, and my forever DM friend wants to play the game
Yeah PF2e is cool and way more detailed than 5E. The books are way better, from lore to mechanics to adventures.
BUT.
It is harder than 5e. It just is. Not by much. And there are of course many similarities. But some things are different and it can take a while to learn.
I like it. And I prefer it, especially now. But there will be a learning curve if you do decide to switch.
Yeah that is kinda why I want to at least learn to DM with 5e. If someone I know wants to run a Pathfinder Game, I'll play.
The text of the blog since the site is down.
Paizo Announces System-Neutral Open RPG License
https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6si7v
For the last several weeks, as rumors of Wizards of the Coast’s new version of the Open Game License began circulating among publishers and on social media, gamers across the world have been asking what Paizo plans to do in light of concerns regarding Wizards of the Coast’s rumored plan to de-authorize the existing OGL 1.0(a). We have been awaiting further information, hoping that Wizards would realize that, for more than 20 years, the OGL has been a mutually beneficial license which should not–and cannot–be revoked. While we continue to await an answer from Wizards, we strongly feel that Paizo can no longer delay making our own feelings about the importance of Open Gaming a part of the public discussion.
We believe that any interpretation that the OGL 1.0 or 1.0(a) were intended to be revocable or able to be deauthorized is incorrect, and with good reason.
We were there.
Paizo owner Lisa Stevens and Paizo president Jim Butler were leaders on the Dungeons & Dragons team at Wizards at the time. Brian Lewis, co-founder of Azora Law, the intellectual property law firm that Paizo uses, was the attorney at Wizards who came up with the legal framework for the OGL itself. Paizo has also worked very closely on OGL-related issues with Ryan Dancey, the visionary who conceived the OGL in the first place.
Paizo does not believe that the OGL 1.0a can be “deauthorized,” ever. While we are prepared to argue that point in a court of law if need be, we don’t want to have to do that, and we know that many of our fellow publishers are not in a position to do so.
We have no interest whatsoever in Wizards’ new OGL. Instead, we have a plan that we believe will irrevocably and unquestionably keep alive the spirit of the Open Game License.
As Paizo has evolved, the parts of the OGL that we ourselves value have changed. When we needed to quickly bring out Pathfinder First Edition to continue publishing our popular monthly adventures back in 2008, using Wizards’ language was important and expeditious. But in our non-RPG products, including our Pathfinder Tales novels, the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, and others, we shifted our focus away from D&D tropes to lean harder into ideas from our own writers. By the time we went to work on Pathfinder Second Edition, Wizards of the Coast’s Open Game Content was significantly less important to us, and so our designers and developers wrote the new edition without using Wizards’ copyrighted expressions of any game mechanics. While we still published it under the OGL, the reason was no longer to allow Paizo to use Wizards’ expressions, but to allow other companies to use our expressions.
We believe, as we always have, that open gaming makes games better, improves profitability for all involved, and enriches the community of gamers who participate in this amazing hobby. And so we invite gamers from around the world to join us as we begin the next great chapter of open gaming with the release of a new open, perpetual, and irrevocable Open RPG Creative License (ORC).
The new Open RPG Creative License will be built system agnostic for independent game publishers under the legal guidance of Azora Law, an intellectual property law firm that represents Paizo and several other game publishers. Paizo will pay for this legal work. We invite game publishers worldwide to join us in support of this system-agnostic license that allows all games to provide their own unique open rules reference documents that open up their individual game systems to the world. To join the effort and provide feedback on the drafts of this license, please sign up by using this form.
In addition to Paizo, Kobold Press, Chaosium, Green Ronin, Legendary Games, Rogue Genius Games, and a growing list of publishers have already agreed to participate in the Open RPG Creative License, and in the coming days we hope and expect to add substantially to this group.
The ORC will not be owned by Paizo, nor will it be owned by any company who makes money publishing RPGs. Azora Law’s ownership of the process and stewardship should provide a safe harbor against any company being bought, sold, or changing management in the future and attempting to rescind rights or nullify sections of the license. Ultimately, we plan to find a nonprofit with a history of open source values to own this license (such as the Linux Foundation).
Of course, Paizo plans to continue publishing Pathfinder and Starfinder, even as we move away from the Open Gaming License. Since months’ worth of products are still at the printer, you’ll see the familiar OGL 1.0(a) in the back of our products for a while yet. While the Open RPG Creative License is being finalized, we’ll be printing Pathfinder and Starfinder products without any license, and we’ll add the finished license to those products when the new license is complete.
We hope that you will continue to support Paizo and other game publishers in this difficult time for the entire hobby. You can do your part by supporting the many companies that have provided content under the OGL. Support Pathfinder and Starfinder by visiting your local game store, subscribing to Pathfinder and Starfinder, or taking advantage of discount code OpenGaming during checkout for 25% off your purchase of the Core Rulebook, Core Rulebook Pocket Edition, or Pathfinder Beginner Box. Support Kobold Press, Green Ronin, Legendary Games, Roll for Combat, Rogue Genius Games, and other publishers working to preserve a prosperous future for Open Gaming that is both perpetual AND irrevocable.
We’ll be there at your side. You can count on us not to go back on our word.
Forever.
–Paizo Inc
Eh. The TTRPG industry doesn't really need its own license (CC-BY would be a good fit), and folks will still have to either re-edit their products to remove references to WotC SRDs or face WotC in court (assuming that they don't back down over the OGL). The whole concept of "Open Game Content", which is trying to claim ownership of non-copyrightable game mechanics, is the original root of this issue, and the ORC will probably perpetuate it.
I also don't know how well people are aware of the context of the Paizo unionization, but the union recognition wasn't because Paizo is some beneficent company: it's because the workplace environment was so bad that literally everyone joined the union and management was forced to fold.
Your second point is sad to learn of.
As to the first, Paizo says they are willing to foot the bill for the court fight with WOTC. And for paying the lawyer fees for drafting up the ORC.
These open licenses also allow you to build on literally the same names and worlds of these IPs. Which I think is what a lot of people love. Not just the mechanics. Or am I misunderstanding something?
The whole point of the OGL is that it clearly demarcates game mechanics (Open Game Content) and Product Identity. There are some "IP" that could be released under OGC, but most of that IP is either sufficiently generic or already public domain (things like spell names and monster names), so that wouldn't be copyrightable anyways.
TTRPG settings fall under Product Identity. Paizo, through its Pathfinder Infinite program, charges a 20% revenue cut to use its IP in your products (same cut as Wizards at the DMsguild site.)
So TLDR then is that Wizard wants even more of a cut from using just the game system then or just want to run off all 3rd party peeps to monopolize any and all materials? I'm a bit confused on the OGL given you can't copyright game mechanics (I thinks that why we have seen a resurgence of OSR THAC0 style games)
All 3PP content published under the new license (which WOTC want to force on everyone) can be used by WOTC for any purpose for ever without paying any royalties or fees. And, if you happen to start making big bucks (750k) from that content, you owe them 25% royalties (on revenue, not profit). Given most publishers operate on margins much, much smaller than that, this is just a way to forever limit the growth of 3PP. WOTC don’t want another Paizo. Ever.
Also, Wizards can change the terms of the license to whatever they want, whenever they want, and by using it you acknowledge that they have sole discretion to determine whether you've violated the agreement, and you forfeit the right to sue them, forfeit the right to a trial by jury over any related dispute, and using Open Game Content (which, again, they determine if you've done!) means that you implicitly agree to the terms of the license agreement. It's a frankly ridiculous document full of blatantly illegal shit that will never hold up in court and which no one in their right mind would agree to voluntarily. Wizards has tried to defend themselves saying that only the biggest companies will have to pay royalties - but they can change that any time to whatever they want!
It's literally the piece of paper from Parks and Rec that just says, "I can do what I want."
Jesus it really is just 4e all over again, I honestly wonder then how shitty OneDnD is going to be when it comes to sucking out player money
OneDnD
Even the name has ominous "one D&D to rule them all" vibes, and the suits probably giggled while coming up with it. :capitalist-laugh:
You can't copyright game mechanics, but you can copyright the expression of game mechanics, and you can use litigation over game mechanics and their expression to drive your smaller competitors out of business whether or not the claim is sound.
The OGL was effectively a do-not-sue agreement. Basically, WotC wouldn't try to test its ownership of these mechanics/expressions in court. In exchange, you were able to make products in the d20 ecosystem as long as you didn't claim compatibility.
Honestly make me wonder now since all of the video games (some owned by Lucas Arts and now Disney) utilized the OGL to design their mechanics (KOTOR and KOTOR 2 being some of the famous ones). This feels like whoever has the biggest dick lawyer energy will win which is why all the famous 3rd party designers are jumping ship on to other systems or designing their own.
Afaik, KOTOR wasn’t actually OGL. They had their own separate license.
Yeah I've heard that too, seems the other claim is that the d20 mechanics were utilized (but could have been utilized under a different agreement since WOTC also publish an earlier Star Wars RPG before FFG published theirs)
Right? I feel like I'm just scratching the surface of weird fringe early 2000s game dev lore on how convoluted some shit was before Disney just bought everything in existence
So from one convoluted reddit post it's the d20 system of the WOTC public SW RPG, that was then swapped for the FFG SW RPG that utilized some form of the OGL for 3rd edition (or at least that's the claim). Of the actual verifiable information is that they do use the D20 system of 3rd edition for all of the background math (feels like this is a dive into early 2000s game design lore and law).
The whole concept of “Open Game Content”, which is trying to claim ownership of non-copyrightable game mechanics, is the original root of this issue, and the ORC will probably perpetuate it.
I know this is a take going around, but I think there's a part of the point that it's missing. Publishing stuff under an open license tells people that it's your intention to share the material. Even if everything is already covered, I think having a clarification from the creator of, "This is ok to use, I'm not going to try to sue you over this" is significant. What's happening now is that Wizards is doing something that's probably illegal, but there's just enough ambiguity that they can threaten small creators with expensive legal battles they can't afford, even if they're in the right. Having an explicit statement from the creator that the content is free to use could be helpful in that circumstance, to ensure that there's no ambiguity.
Has it actually been ruled in court that game mechanics are not copyrightable?
Just bought the Starfinder Core Book from Paizo, looking forward to more of their stuff and supporting them.
I grabbed a pocket edition from a book store recently. Will grab the core rules of Pathfinder soon.
Damn it, you beat me to it. I posted something about this but now I see you did it first. :d20-ah-fuck: :angery:
Lol. It’s okay comrade. You can win the karma race next time.
Edit - BTW, looks like Matt Colville will not be a part of this.
Edit - BTW, looks like Matt Colville will not be a part of this.
I think that's for the best.
I'm happy about what Paizo is doing, but it would only take one asshole executive to make Paizo do a WOTC someday, so ecosystem diversity is a good thing.
Yeah but that’s a complete misunderstanding of what Paizo is doing. The Open RPG Creative (ORC) License is not something Paizo can pull a WOTC on because Paizo doesn’t own it.
They’re footing the bill for the thing to be created by a proper law firm in conjunction with multiple other rpg makers that will be held by a non-profit agency. It is also specifically made to be irrevocable and perpetual. It is also systems agnostic - because, again, the goal isn’t to create an OGL for Pathfinder, but an ORC that can provide a systematic way for all rpgs to be opened up to fans and other creators.
Either Colville doesn’t understand this, which is unlikely, or he doesn’t want to be a part of the open rpg movement.
Add in the silence from Crit Role and Dimension 20, it seems like all these big actual play creators and communities have no interest in open rpg or any desire to express solidarity with 3PP.
Crit Role is deep in bed with wizards isn't it? Like I know they have their own world going but I thought it was in a partnership with WotC.
Yeah, in all likelihood they maybe already signed the new OGL. Who knows.
The new OGL isn't officially out yet, and Critical Role will almost certainly be offered a better, separate licensing agreement, which they may or may not accept. New OGL will likely be used as a threat to increase their bargaining power for agreements that are actually legally enforceable.
The OGL got leaked because it was shared with multiple companies and some of them said nah. Given the favourable terms kickstarter has in it already, it’s a given they that kickstarter got a deal for that. This isn’t just some first draft circulating among some employees. This was probably literally the official one, or very close to it.
CR did probably get a better deal. Which is why they’re quiet. They don’t want to seem like allies of WOTC even if that’s what they are.
Matt Mercer did like a tweet saying that old OGL is good. I suspect that they have their own legal stuff as WotC has published them before and DnD Beyond does sponsor them. They also have been publishing their own books and seem to have been trying to distance themselves from DnD lore. I suspect it is just some nasty behind the scenes stuff. I won't be surprised either way.
It hasn't even been 24 hours since they announced this and you're accusing a bunch of people of being opposed to open gaming by not having responded yet. I think you're being a bit premature.
While Paizo’s announcement is new, CR has been silent about the new OGL for way too long for it to be a mistake or a slip up or whatever. They probably are literally barred from speaking about it, which means they signed some form of NDA, either the one in the OGL or from some other deal. In either case, this means they are allied with WOTC and not the rest of the community.
Tbh I do find it likely that they'll sign with Wizards but it's not a forgone conclusion. I think you're being Twitter-brained about this. CR may want to wait and see what they're offered before they make a decision, or be waiting to see which way the wind is blowing, or have internal disagreements about how to proceed. They had developed a working relationship with Wizards long before this came out and it's reasonable that they don't want to throw that out at the drop of the hat. But that doesn't mean their response is already decided.
can't wait for klandace Owens to start talking about how the left canceled DND
D&D is going with the angle of, "We need to seize total control because someone might make racist or homophobic content and we want to be able to shut it down immediately," which is obviously just throwing minorities under the bus to cover their ass and attempting to brand critics as bigots, but while the vast majority isn't falling for it, right-wing grifters are definitely going to have that as an angle.
D&D is going with the angle of, “We need to seize total control because someone might make racist or homophobic content and we want to be able to shut it down immediately,” which is obviously just throwing minorities under the bus to cover their ass and attempting to brand critics as bigots, but while the vast majority isn’t falling for it, right-wing grifters are definitely going to have that as an angle.
:capitalist-woke:
Actually, the far-right also doesn't like the OGL 1.1, since it gives WotC the right to shut down your publication if you use the OGL 1.1 and your product is racist/transphobic etc...
Obviously, that type of product is bad, but no one with any sense of self-preservation would sign away that type of right to a company for basically nothing in return.
I've seen some small peanuts DnD youtubers go on rants on WOTC embracing furries, having species instead of race, and removing racist shit as "go woke go broke" shit all over again with the OGL debacle (even though most DnD nerds are cool with WOTC being inclusive and are just mad about the OGL)
Embracing furries? What is D&D if your party isn't a robot, a mantis man, a vampire and a fucking gnome?
A boring ass time that's what it is, but yeah hobbyist reactionaries only know how to play fascist character fantasies.
Yeah Wizards did one good thing recently and that was go sue some CHUD's RPG for using one of their products with extreme racism.
Essentially, Paizo and others are creating an open license for multiple different rpg systems that explicitly cannot be revoked. Open licenses basically allow you to build on their IP and sell your stuff without needing to pay royalties or anything. It’s what made D&D so popular. In turn, other people can build on what you made too. Kinda like copyleft and Creative Commons etc.
They don't have legal standing to apply it anything else.
