Honest question, why even bother with communism, anarchism or any form of leftwing political theory if you hate other people? It is just about being ontologically correct?
Well you at least seem to hate being around them, which is, in fact, incredibly necessary for organization and change? You literally believe navigating standard social situations is, and I quote, 'self-harm'.
I feel very attacked for asking an honest question, like describing the question as 'ableist', to me, feels combative, as opposed to illuminative. But whatever, if you don't want to answer it, fine.
how is it that you manage to be here and apparently have no idea of the trauma neurotypical society and social norms inflict on people who don't effortlessly conform?
this is a question I ask myself a lot, because I'm also very exhausted by interaction with people outside of basic pleasantries. I don't hate people, but I can tell something is very wrong when I spend time with them more than perhaps ten minutes. I've done org work and even union organizing, but things had to remain very on-topic, involve a lot of awkward silence (for hours), or else I started feeling very, very bad.
My particular illness has been diagnosed as "avoidant personality disorder" by a few doctors if that helps.
and my personal political inclination is the realization that left-wing politics would be most beneficial to me personally. I hate paying rent, hate my job, and I want better/free healthcare.
This is more understandable to me. I certainly get having anxiety around social situations, and focusing on a specific task rather than socializing, It's just that, theory without praxis is just navel-gazing, which is fine, but it kinda defeats the purpose of being a leftist, unless you take the option the whole facade will simply crumble on its own (which is possible) but even then, understanding how that will affect your own community is how change is made.
Oh yeah, I came to that realization myself a while ago, that if I'm doing nothing then I'm essentially just an extra angry liberal. And that over a long enough time span, being alone and head full of angry leftist thoughts would transform me into a bitter, incomprehensible crank. I didn't want that, and unfortunately I think I'm halfway there already.
So I have done work, handed out food, lots of things. Never manifested a friendship though, that just doesn't seem to work. Puzzle pieces don't fit. I haven't accomplished much either, like at this point it feels like the praxis was just done out of personal validation more than anything else. It's kept me relatively normal. I have some ability to talk with other people for a few minutes at a time.
I agree with everything you said and I am happy to hear your progress. That being said, I am of the opinion that old age makes incomprehensible cranks of us all. Too much time, not enough similar cultural touchstones, etc.
Friendship is a difficult thing and rarely comes out of politics. Too much jockeying and signalling. You'd be better off trying to make friends at a dart league, even if you have to deal with the occasional off-color comment or stupid political opinion. However, in my experience you'll find people are, in general, more accepting of weird leftist bullshit than you'd think, and are even more accepting of it if they already like you for other reasons.
maybe someday i'll fully give up and :william-van-spronsen: but otherwise, until society changes enough to be accessible, i'm stuck being a bookshelf or cussing out people online.
in the meantime it would be cool if folks would stop replying to "x is hard" with "just try to do x anyway"
William Van Spronson had a long and productive life within the anarchist mileau of the U.S. long before before he decided to be a martyr. He went out and talked to people for a long time before he decided to take matters into his own hands.
I'm not saying 'just do x anyways'. I'm saying that telling other people that 'x is self-harm' when, for most leftist people, it's really not, is self-defeating, nihilistic and non-materialist.
Imo, communism isn't about being correct online, it's about theorizing and then building structures to supplant and combat capitalism. Cussing out people online is fine, it's just that if that is all you do you will form a warped perspective of 'people' because this is an awful Skinner box that is generally only reflective of the most anti-social aspects of humanity. Again, imo.
and i said that it feels like self-harm. you know, to me. because it does. But i'm sure you know my suffering better than I do. Putting myself in social situations that make me want to die is definitely going to meaningfully contribute to the revolution.
And that's completely understandable. I'd say that is the general position of most of the misanthropic and 'anti-social outside of the internet' people on this forum. That being said, being a Millenarian advocate leads to different conclusions and analysis than being a 'Scientific Socialist'.
For one, every version of socialism that has ever been successful in the long term is and has been a highly sociable organization. Knowing your community is a huge part of a successful pursuit of any kind of positive change, period. You have to fight alienation with humanization, which is an incredibly difficult task in a society where alienation is the default state of things. The weird thing to me about a rabid defense of isolation is that, even most Millenarian advocates also recognize humanization as the key to success, it's just that most of them use that as a way to create cults of personality that that attempt to break away from society but cannot escape becoming a reflection of it. A Millenarian advocate for isolation, imo, far more resembles a libertarian or technocrat liberal in their understanding and dealing with people and the concept of humanization, which is how I struggle to even conceive of a 'communism' that can advocate for that. Obfuscating the contradiction with mental-health language does nothing to ease or progress the dialectic, imo.
Personally, this is where I find ideas of personal growth to be helpful. Not in a 'you can suddenly fix yourself and your insecurities and then because of that become happy, successful and wealthy within society' nonsense way. In a 'it has been show, scientifically, that you can overtime make improvements within your physicality and social skills, you may never 'master it' but the more you exercise it, the better overtime you get at something'. And this is well within a 'scientific socialist' framework of understanding, and things that have been advocated for within socialist countries. That doesn't mean you have to be 100% productive all of the time, but what it does mean is that improving yourself and your skills is something that every successful communist party advocates for. Hell, I'd go so far to say as that is the whole point of attempting to reach communism, it's to give you more time to do those things that relate to yourself and those immediately around you, rather than get better at making money for an entity that you are ultimately alienated from.
I understand that. As much as I hate generalized liberal platitudes and other forms of psycho-babble, based off of what you are saying I do think you should try to engage in a behavioral psychological technique called 'positive visualization'. This term has been bastardized by the self-help community over the last couple of decades as 'mantras' or 'manifestations', but it's a far more meta-concept than that. It's not magic, it's a deconstruction of your own thought process.
Basically, if you would like, a couple times a day, try to imagine yourself engaging with people in positive way. I know you said that 'you can't see yourself doing it' but I refuse to believe that your imagination is that limited. After all, if I am reading your words correctly, you are perfectly capable of imagining a catastrophized interaction, which is a far more involved and dramatic imagining. And once you've done that positive visualization, then think about how that was an imagined conversation. In the same way, if your ever find your brain wandering off and catastrophizing a potential interaction, try to stop and think about how that was also an imagined conversation. Basically, you are trying to, through conscious choices and oppositional thinking, recognize when you are imagining things. For some people it helps to keep track of when those thoughts happen, how many times a day, what the nature of the imagination is, how long it had been since you ate (people get incredibly grumpy if they haven't eaten). None of this involves actually having to go talk to people, but it is a recognition of the difference between the material and the ideological.
However, this is just a first step. If you aren't seeing a reduction in those thoughts despite sticking to a plan, that might be indicative of actual brain-chemistry issues, not just learned behavioral thought patterns. But if you do see or feel a reduction, then you can, if you want, actually go out and try to interact with people. Who knows, maybe I am incorrect and you will always have a bad time (I personally doubt that, I have known some very strange people be incredibly social and liked, but I am not you and I don't live in your area). But at least you didn't imagine yourself having a bad time beforehand thus poisoning the well.
Social shit is very hard to do, but these are good suggestions, especially when you're not used to it. Socialising in our society is not an easy thing and I 110% empathise with the struggle. If you genuinely cannot find a single org/class/group that even slightly aligns with your interests, you may just have to put up with doing something you're not passionate about in order to meet others.
I'm extremely bad at social stuff, but found a local walking group easy because it means silences aren't awkward, talk can just happen as/when it happens, or I can even just say very little if I'm not feeling it. I'm not particularly into walking, and I'm not that good at talking, but it's a way for me to be part of a group, have an occasional fun chat when the moment arises, and get exercise in.
i had a group thing or two pre-covid but nothing ever escalated.
it's so difficult to want to do anything and then actually go through the ordeal for a chance at something that depends on the interest and investment of strangers.
maybe there's a cult somewhere that just does the love bombing part and skips the low-protein gruel and mass weddings.
ngl those all sound like miserable experiences
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avoid pain and boredom.
i've got some videogame friends but they're not local and I can't afford to move.
navigating social situations is exhausting and feels like self-harm
Honest question, why even bother with communism, anarchism or any form of leftwing political theory if you hate other people? It is just about being ontologically correct?
yup, I said that I hate other people. that's exactly what I meant. I also love seeing ableism on this website and especially in this com.
Well you at least seem to hate being around them, which is, in fact, incredibly necessary for organization and change? You literally believe navigating standard social situations is, and I quote, 'self-harm'.
I feel very attacked for asking an honest question, like describing the question as 'ableist', to me, feels combative, as opposed to illuminative. But whatever, if you don't want to answer it, fine.
how is it that you manage to be here and apparently have no idea of the trauma neurotypical society and social norms inflict on people who don't effortlessly conform?
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this is a question I ask myself a lot, because I'm also very exhausted by interaction with people outside of basic pleasantries. I don't hate people, but I can tell something is very wrong when I spend time with them more than perhaps ten minutes. I've done org work and even union organizing, but things had to remain very on-topic, involve a lot of awkward silence (for hours), or else I started feeling very, very bad.
My particular illness has been diagnosed as "avoidant personality disorder" by a few doctors if that helps.
and my personal political inclination is the realization that left-wing politics would be most beneficial to me personally. I hate paying rent, hate my job, and I want better/free healthcare.
This is more understandable to me. I certainly get having anxiety around social situations, and focusing on a specific task rather than socializing, It's just that, theory without praxis is just navel-gazing, which is fine, but it kinda defeats the purpose of being a leftist, unless you take the option the whole facade will simply crumble on its own (which is possible) but even then, understanding how that will affect your own community is how change is made.
Oh yeah, I came to that realization myself a while ago, that if I'm doing nothing then I'm essentially just an extra angry liberal. And that over a long enough time span, being alone and head full of angry leftist thoughts would transform me into a bitter, incomprehensible crank. I didn't want that, and unfortunately I think I'm halfway there already.
So I have done work, handed out food, lots of things. Never manifested a friendship though, that just doesn't seem to work. Puzzle pieces don't fit. I haven't accomplished much either, like at this point it feels like the praxis was just done out of personal validation more than anything else. It's kept me relatively normal. I have some ability to talk with other people for a few minutes at a time.
I agree with everything you said and I am happy to hear your progress. That being said, I am of the opinion that old age makes incomprehensible cranks of us all. Too much time, not enough similar cultural touchstones, etc.
Friendship is a difficult thing and rarely comes out of politics. Too much jockeying and signalling. You'd be better off trying to make friends at a dart league, even if you have to deal with the occasional off-color comment or stupid political opinion. However, in my experience you'll find people are, in general, more accepting of weird leftist bullshit than you'd think, and are even more accepting of it if they already like you for other reasons.
maybe someday i'll fully give up and :william-van-spronsen: but otherwise, until society changes enough to be accessible, i'm stuck being a bookshelf or cussing out people online.
in the meantime it would be cool if folks would stop replying to "x is hard" with "just try to do x anyway"
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William Van Spronson had a long and productive life within the anarchist mileau of the U.S. long before before he decided to be a martyr. He went out and talked to people for a long time before he decided to take matters into his own hands.
I'm not saying 'just do x anyways'. I'm saying that telling other people that 'x is self-harm' when, for most leftist people, it's really not, is self-defeating, nihilistic and non-materialist.
Imo, communism isn't about being correct online, it's about theorizing and then building structures to supplant and combat capitalism. Cussing out people online is fine, it's just that if that is all you do you will form a warped perspective of 'people' because this is an awful Skinner box that is generally only reflective of the most anti-social aspects of humanity. Again, imo.
His name was Willem.
and i said that it feels like self-harm. you know, to me. because it does. But i'm sure you know my suffering better than I do. Putting myself in social situations that make me want to die is definitely going to meaningfully contribute to the revolution.
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And that's completely understandable. I'd say that is the general position of most of the misanthropic and 'anti-social outside of the internet' people on this forum. That being said, being a Millenarian advocate leads to different conclusions and analysis than being a 'Scientific Socialist'.
For one, every version of socialism that has ever been successful in the long term is and has been a highly sociable organization. Knowing your community is a huge part of a successful pursuit of any kind of positive change, period. You have to fight alienation with humanization, which is an incredibly difficult task in a society where alienation is the default state of things. The weird thing to me about a rabid defense of isolation is that, even most Millenarian advocates also recognize humanization as the key to success, it's just that most of them use that as a way to create cults of personality that that attempt to break away from society but cannot escape becoming a reflection of it. A Millenarian advocate for isolation, imo, far more resembles a libertarian or technocrat liberal in their understanding and dealing with people and the concept of humanization, which is how I struggle to even conceive of a 'communism' that can advocate for that. Obfuscating the contradiction with mental-health language does nothing to ease or progress the dialectic, imo.
Personally, this is where I find ideas of personal growth to be helpful. Not in a 'you can suddenly fix yourself and your insecurities and then because of that become happy, successful and wealthy within society' nonsense way. In a 'it has been show, scientifically, that you can overtime make improvements within your physicality and social skills, you may never 'master it' but the more you exercise it, the better overtime you get at something'. And this is well within a 'scientific socialist' framework of understanding, and things that have been advocated for within socialist countries. That doesn't mean you have to be 100% productive all of the time, but what it does mean is that improving yourself and your skills is something that every successful communist party advocates for. Hell, I'd go so far to say as that is the whole point of attempting to reach communism, it's to give you more time to do those things that relate to yourself and those immediately around you, rather than get better at making money for an entity that you are ultimately alienated from.
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I understand that. As much as I hate generalized liberal platitudes and other forms of psycho-babble, based off of what you are saying I do think you should try to engage in a behavioral psychological technique called 'positive visualization'. This term has been bastardized by the self-help community over the last couple of decades as 'mantras' or 'manifestations', but it's a far more meta-concept than that. It's not magic, it's a deconstruction of your own thought process.
Basically, if you would like, a couple times a day, try to imagine yourself engaging with people in positive way. I know you said that 'you can't see yourself doing it' but I refuse to believe that your imagination is that limited. After all, if I am reading your words correctly, you are perfectly capable of imagining a catastrophized interaction, which is a far more involved and dramatic imagining. And once you've done that positive visualization, then think about how that was an imagined conversation. In the same way, if your ever find your brain wandering off and catastrophizing a potential interaction, try to stop and think about how that was also an imagined conversation. Basically, you are trying to, through conscious choices and oppositional thinking, recognize when you are imagining things. For some people it helps to keep track of when those thoughts happen, how many times a day, what the nature of the imagination is, how long it had been since you ate (people get incredibly grumpy if they haven't eaten). None of this involves actually having to go talk to people, but it is a recognition of the difference between the material and the ideological.
However, this is just a first step. If you aren't seeing a reduction in those thoughts despite sticking to a plan, that might be indicative of actual brain-chemistry issues, not just learned behavioral thought patterns. But if you do see or feel a reduction, then you can, if you want, actually go out and try to interact with people. Who knows, maybe I am incorrect and you will always have a bad time (I personally doubt that, I have known some very strange people be incredibly social and liked, but I am not you and I don't live in your area). But at least you didn't imagine yourself having a bad time beforehand thus poisoning the well.
Social shit is very hard to do, but these are good suggestions, especially when you're not used to it. Socialising in our society is not an easy thing and I 110% empathise with the struggle. If you genuinely cannot find a single org/class/group that even slightly aligns with your interests, you may just have to put up with doing something you're not passionate about in order to meet others.
I'm extremely bad at social stuff, but found a local walking group easy because it means silences aren't awkward, talk can just happen as/when it happens, or I can even just say very little if I'm not feeling it. I'm not particularly into walking, and I'm not that good at talking, but it's a way for me to be part of a group, have an occasional fun chat when the moment arises, and get exercise in.
i had a group thing or two pre-covid but nothing ever escalated.
it's so difficult to want to do anything and then actually go through the ordeal for a chance at something that depends on the interest and investment of strangers.
maybe there's a cult somewhere that just does the love bombing part and skips the low-protein gruel and mass weddings.