Yeltsin/Putin seemed to have a legitimate desire to join NATO in the 90s/early 00s. Russia joining NATO would almost completely encircle China and allow the EU and US to station troops on the Chinese border. So it would have been a geopolitical masterstroke.
What is the explanation for why Russia didn't join NATO? Is it because China wasn't seen as a threat back then or is it simply cold war brainworms? Anyone have an explanation or readings on this?
https://fair.org/home/what-you-should-really-know-about-ukraine/
As political turmoil engulfed the country in the leadup to 2014, the US was fueling anti-government sentiment through mechanisms like USAID and National Endowment for Democracy (NED), just as they had done in 2004. In December 2013, Nuland, assistant secretary of state for European affairs and a long-time regime change advocate, said that the US government had spent $5 billion promoting “democracy” in Ukraine since 1991. The money went toward supporting “senior officials in the Ukraine government…[members of] the business community as well as opposition civil society” who agree with US goals.
On February 6, 2014, as the anti-government protests were intensifying, an anonymous party (assumed by many to be Russia) leaked a call between Assistant Secretary of State Nuland and US ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt. The two officials discussed which opposition officials would staff a prospective new government, agreeing that Arseniy Yatsenyuk—Nuland referred to him by the nickname “Yats”—should be in charge. It was also agreed that someone “high profile” be brought in to push things along. That someone was Joe Biden.
Weeks later, on February 22, after a massacre by suspicious snipers brought tensions to a head, the Ukrainian parliament quickly removed Yanukovych from office in a constitutionally questionable maneuver. Yanukovych then fled the country, calling the overthrow a coup. On February 27, Yatsenyuk became prime minister.
The Washington-backed opposition that toppled the government was fueled by far-right and openly Nazi elements like the Right Sector. One far-right group that grew out of the protests was the Azov Battalion, a paramilitary militia of neo-Nazi extremists. Their leaders made up the vanguard of the anti-Yanukovych protests, and even spoke at opposition events in the Maidan alongside US regime change advocates like McCain and Nuland.
Edit: While I'm pilling here's the "unprovoked, illegal invasion" pill: Ukraine regime forces were massed on the contact line in the Donbas and intensified their shelling starting on February 16, 2022. This is incidentally why Russia was able to take so much territory so quickly with a relatively small force in the first weeks: because the Ukrainian forces were NOT in defensive positions along the border with Russia preparing for an invasion, they were in offensive positions along the contact line against their own compatriots, who until recently were trying to achieve local autonomy within Ukraine rather than independence or annexation to Russia.
https://patrickarmstrong.ca/2022/03/18/what-i-got-wrong-and-why/
https://www.thepostil.com/the-military-situation-in-the-ukraine/
https://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports?page=3
Edit 2: I just found this today because Christopher Black was sitting next to Aaron Mate at the UN, it was literally a NATO sniper team
https://christopher-black.com/the-maidan-massacre-us-army-orders-sow-chaos/
In the November 16 article in the Italian journal Il Giornale, and repeated on Italian TV Canale 5, journalist Gian Micalessin revealed that 3 Georgians, all trained army snipers, and with links to Mikheil Saakashvili and Georgian security forces were ordered to travel to Kiev from Tbilisi during the Maidan events. It is two of these men that are now being called to testify in Kiev.
On the 18th of February they were given weapons and two of them took up positions at the Hotel Ukraina overlooking Maidan Square while the third was positioned in the Conservatory. Other snipers were positioned in other buildings to fire into the square. Prior to that they met with, among other people, an American soldier in uniform, a claimed “former” member of the US Army’s 101st Airborne Division, who gave them orders on what to do, which it turned out to be was to shoot into Maidan Square randomly targeting people, protestors and police alike, to create fear and confusion, to implicate the government forces as the shooters, to create the chaos necessary in order to undermine the government of President Yanukovych, who fled shortly after the event realising his own life was in danger. The name of the American soldier, or the alias he used, was Brian Christopher Boyenger. He showed up later as an adviser to the Ukrainian Georgian Legion. One of the snipers stated,
“Once, I guess around February 15, Mamulashvili personally visited our tent. There was another guy with him wearing a uniform. Mamulashvili introduced him to us and told us he was an American military guy and will be our instructor.”
I'm so glad that I'm a better informed person because of effort posts by people like @fart_the_peehole
:kim-salute:
In addition to the excellent resources recommended in this thread, I'd recommend Oliver Stone's documentaries on Ukraine and his interviews with Putin.
Russia would be independent and not have to bow to any pressure, and the US isn't looking for equal partners. Take a look at Turkey, they're throwing a wrench into the spokes of NATO expansion. If they weren't a legacy admission, they wouldn't be allowed in today
Turkey was admitted for very good reasons: it allows Russia to be flanked and invaded from two directions. This is one of the Axis' main problems in WWII, a single-axis attack allowed the Russians to put all their resources in one direction.
Once Russia is In , you dont need the Americans in and the Americans dont actually provide anything usefull to Europe outside of Psy Op & Superstructres .. so Russia in nato was never a real option I think. Its sprung from Russian Naivity towards the Nastynes of the West in the mid 90's .. "End of History" Madness ..
As others have said, it has to do with geopolitics. HOWEVER, it also has to do with the very self-destructive nature of American politics. Even if the Clinton admin wanted Russia to join NATO, the Republicans would have immediately thrown a wrench in the works just because that is just what they do. You see this behavior time and again within the U.S. foreign policy, which is why we are unable to form a coherent foreign policy. Now, this works well to bully smaller nations or even remain inscrutable to the competition, but as soon as we face countries with our level of economic development and consistent, predictable, long term foreign policy objectives, it will fall apart because people don't want to deal with a wild card. And the sad part is that 'the blob' knows this, but can't decide if China or Russia is a bigger threat.
Everyone is talking geopolitics, but I think it’s simpler. America thought the USSR commiting a Brexit to itself meant the American system was unstoppable. We thought we could pillage the former USSR and get away with it. It was manifest destiny like thinking that made it the endless conflict we have today.
I really can’t believe the Clinton administration was thinking “with an alliance to Russia we will finally encircle the Chinese communist threat.” In the 90s they didn’t even think China was a threat.
America got high on its supply and instead of integration we chose the shock doctrine.
yeah there isn't some master plan. The west is very much bumbling along
Guys like pournelle were thinking "at least the russians are (sort of ) white we should ally with them.
Because Russia is the enemy and always will be.
These systems don't work without an enemy. Without one, the people might blame their problems on the correct people: their own ruling class.
I think there were actually moves made in that direction during the Clinton years. Presumably when the White House changed hands, the new people at the State Department decided to kill that plan, though I admit I have no knowledge of the details on that shift.
Edit: In Clinton's own words, they "left the door open" for Russia to join NATO but never actually did anything to make that happen, and Russian officials apparently disagree that this possibility was ever presented as being on the table.
Not really, Clinton and Bush were both basically stringing the Russians along.
i thought clinton said no, but i could have the timeline wrong.
Russian integration into Europe would provide a second pole for Europe to revolve around, thereby weakening American hegemony in Europe.
The simple answer is that NATO is a tool for imperial hegemony and Russia was on the wrong side of that equation. Even simpler: the US would rather reserve the right to militarily oppose Russia than expand NATO to include it, i.e. it kept up the cold war strategy rather than more or less end the purpose of NATO.
If Russia were admitted to NATO in 1999, what would NATO organize around? Its whole purpose was to isolate and threaten the USSR and then, naturally, Russia. US military bases all over Europe, nukes distributed similarity, intelligence networks, financial tools, economic dependency.
Imagining for a moment that US state department folks were competent, it would've been easy for them to see and imagine where this could go: a draw-down of US influence in Europe because, you know, they won. War's over. Russia in NATO means there's no bad neighbor to point missiles at, that you can't do that anymore. Easy to see the risk of bases closing, nukes getting decommissioned, European countries demanding less spying, more autonomy in their economies, and rich trade with Russia.
NATO is, and has been since its conception, an anti-russian alliance. allowing Russia to join it completely defeats its purpose
Death to America
Cold war :brainworms: definitely and Russia's request to join NATO was rejected because it's role is to simply remain hostile to Russia and nurture all the closeted Balti-nazis.
Also Russia could still remain friendly with China and thus, hobble NATO's efforts in various wars.
NAFOs deserve mass purges
