What dollar value do you place on abortion access?
Reducing Trump vs. Biden to cash payments is a horrible look for the left. Other things matter a lot. There's a decent point somewhere about how giving cash directly to people is great and Democrats suck so bad they couldn't even manage as much as Republicans, but "Trump actually did more for me" is not it. It's the type of contrarianism that makes us look like cranks.
And yes, Republicans are more to blame for a decades-long project to burn Roe to the ground than Democrats are for not installing a sprinkler system. The vast majority of persuadable people in the U.S. agree, too.
Ok this ain't exactly a great argument either, I can also point out Biden has deported twice as many people as Trump
Where in the moral calculus does that weigh against abortion, wtf is the point of a harm reduction narrative if its blown out of the water by simple facts like Biden deportations?
Engaging with the reality that dems are just as much monsters as the trumpers is not crankdom, it's actual politics
Cause let's be real covid and roe gave dems breathing room, but that's not gonna last forever, dems may be better on abortion rhetorically but they don't give a damn about it on a national scale outside of cynical fundraising, if thats what we're relying on to protect abortion rights then the chuds have won already
But now we're talking about those other things that really do matter, which is already a million times better than "Trump gave me slightly more cash, that's where my analysis ends." And of course you can go issue by issue and find plenty of areas where Democrats are obviously better.
dems are just as much monsters as the trumpers
Leftists have tried this line for decades and it doesn’t work because it's not true. Ordinary Democrats hear this and think: "You want me to believe the Minnesota governor is no different from the Florida governor? You either don't know what you're talking about or you're messing with me." They hear the exact same shit from actual cranks (libertarians) which only reinforces this.
We can either try something else or keep failing. We can either take the feedback the masses are giving or stubbornly insist we know what we're doing despite the American left's thin list of successes.
Cash transfers matter, they hit people's lives in ways most issues don't, so it's a valid line of argumentation, trying to trivialize it is what strikes me as out of touch, no matter the intention the Trump admin did provide those funds, and the biden admin took them away, those are facts and frankly I don't give damn if it makes some calculating liberals uncomfortable
And of course you can go issue by issue and find plenty of areas where Democrats are obviously better.
Again rhetorically that could be true, substantially and policy wise it's not, and there are plenty of issues where dems are now worse on, Immigration and war being two of them
Leftists have tried this line for decades and it doesn’t work because it's not true
lmao what is this revisionism, leftists in the US have done the complete opposite for decades, it's been nothing but entryism for the last 50 years; Bernie and his supporters voted for Clinton and Biden, the left went along with Obama, there wasn't even a left to speak of during the Bush years, you're literally just accepting the framing invented by butthurt libs in 2016 after Clinton ate shit
The people arguing the dems are dogshit are a distinct minority, not because it's not true, or because it alienates the average Joe (the average Joe doesn't vote because this line is already his baseline opinion) we remain a politically active minority because we don't control any substantial media apparatus or fundraising network, be honest you probably didn't even know Biden deported twice as many people as Trump, you probably assumed it was the opposite, didn't you? You know why that's the case, because you consume media the enforces that erroneous belief
I'm not saying cash transfers don't matter. I'm saying "Trump gave me more cash, end of story" is a really bad take. I don't see any leftist org taking that line, just online contrarians.
leftists in the US have done the complete opposite for decades, it's been nothing but entryism for the last 50 years; Bernie and his supporters voted for Clinton and Biden
That was the big exception, not the rule. The only leftist org that does serious entryism is the DSA, which 10 years ago wasn't even a factor. What passed for the left from basically the 70s to Bernie trotted out "both parties are the same" all the time -- see that RATM video playing clips from the 2000 campaign where Bush and Gore were saying startlingly similar things.
Besides rhetoric, the only difference between a hypothetical Trump and the real Biden that most have materially experienced is the decrease of checks. Trump probably would've stroked his ego by giving more money again afterwards while Biden just lied about his promise to be austere. Biden being slightly less transphobic hasn't changed the way that transphobia hurts our trans comrades in any way, and their treatment will likely only get worse during crises of capitalism with either Biden or Trump. Trump would've celebrated Row v Wade being shot, but Biden's fake weeping hasn't provided a single extra person with more abortion rights.
You can keep trying to talk to people about their non-material reality the way news-media does and concede that the democrats are different, or you can figure out how to talk about people's material needs in a way that encourages real action and movement to overthrow that system. It can't be "the dems and repubs are the same" it's that they are two weapons of capital. That's a possible way to get through to people. Good cop bad cop analogies
The left has a thin list of RECENT successes because there is no left there making any meaningful analysis of the conditions in a settler-colony propped up by external imperialism but still experiencing exploitation on top of that. Correctly identifying the primary contradictions and the relations to the others is work that you gotta do before stubbornly insisting something, sure. But there are people who udnerstand that and you're not one of them, it seems. The left had successes that lead to concessions which improved people's lives materially, but these ultimately were captured and reused to hurt elft movemetns.
Sure but were among comrades here. We all know that the original poster of that claim understands this because its absolutely visible to all and requires no in depth analysis as well as being a mainstream position. The radical addition that "trump gave me money and others got it too, so it makes some sense that people like him" is not this mainstream and was the claim being made.
We all know that the original poster of that claim understands this
I don't think so. "Trump gave me more cash so he was better" pops up on here plenty and I always get dug-in opposition when I point out it's a terrible take.
What dollar value do you place on abortion access?
suck my dick
the outlawing of abortion was a long term process that the Democrats supported, from running anti-abortion candidates over pro-abortion (Henry Cuellar), not codifying it into law during the Clinton, Obama or early Biden admin, not stacking the supreme court and letting RPG rot on the bench until she died at the age of 103 instead of replacing her. This isn't "oh, they didn't do enough to stop the Republicans", they allowed it to happen because it was politically advantageous to do so, just like how the Biden admin stopped giving a shit about covid 0.00001 ms after the election was called.
Reducing Trump vs. Biden to cash payments is a horrible look for the left
Again, suck my dick. The Democrats blocked another round of stimulus payments that Trump wanted to get out the door before elections (cash out of my pocket), and then the Biden admin cut $600 from these checks. No, whoever is willing to give everyone cash like the stimulus payments deserves the public's support, and if the oppositional party doesn't want to look like the austerity ghouls that they are, they should cut us a bigger check. It's not just that the Trump admin wound up doing more for me, it's that the Biden admin has done nothing. I got $5k in savings and got to see a doctor under the Trump admin, Biden took that away. There isn't a lesser of two evils point you can make with regards to Biden. It's not "making us look like cranks", if anything telling the non-politically aligned dweeb on the street "hey, your life is better under the guy that gave you nothing, actually" is so disconnected from not just their reality, but the reality of other posters in this thread that I hope to god you're a fed and didn't arrive at this ideological train-wreck organically.
What dollar value do you place on abortion access?
Reducing Trump vs. Biden to cash payments is a horrible look for the left. Other things matter a lot. There's a decent point somewhere about how giving cash directly to people is great and Democrats suck so bad they couldn't even manage as much as Republicans, but "Trump actually did more for me" is not it. It's the type of contrarianism that makes us look like cranks.
And yes, Republicans are more to blame for a decades-long project to burn Roe to the ground than Democrats are for not installing a sprinkler system. The vast majority of persuadable people in the U.S. agree, too.
Ok this ain't exactly a great argument either, I can also point out Biden has deported twice as many people as Trump
Where in the moral calculus does that weigh against abortion, wtf is the point of a harm reduction narrative if its blown out of the water by simple facts like Biden deportations?
Engaging with the reality that dems are just as much monsters as the trumpers is not crankdom, it's actual politics
Cause let's be real covid and roe gave dems breathing room, but that's not gonna last forever, dems may be better on abortion rhetorically but they don't give a damn about it on a national scale outside of cynical fundraising, if thats what we're relying on to protect abortion rights then the chuds have won already
But now we're talking about those other things that really do matter, which is already a million times better than "Trump gave me slightly more cash, that's where my analysis ends." And of course you can go issue by issue and find plenty of areas where Democrats are obviously better.
Leftists have tried this line for decades and it doesn’t work because it's not true. Ordinary Democrats hear this and think: "You want me to believe the Minnesota governor is no different from the Florida governor? You either don't know what you're talking about or you're messing with me." They hear the exact same shit from actual cranks (libertarians) which only reinforces this.
We can either try something else or keep failing. We can either take the feedback the masses are giving or stubbornly insist we know what we're doing despite the American left's thin list of successes.
Cash transfers matter, they hit people's lives in ways most issues don't, so it's a valid line of argumentation, trying to trivialize it is what strikes me as out of touch, no matter the intention the Trump admin did provide those funds, and the biden admin took them away, those are facts and frankly I don't give damn if it makes some calculating liberals uncomfortable
Again rhetorically that could be true, substantially and policy wise it's not, and there are plenty of issues where dems are now worse on, Immigration and war being two of them
lmao what is this revisionism, leftists in the US have done the complete opposite for decades, it's been nothing but entryism for the last 50 years; Bernie and his supporters voted for Clinton and Biden, the left went along with Obama, there wasn't even a left to speak of during the Bush years, you're literally just accepting the framing invented by butthurt libs in 2016 after Clinton ate shit
The people arguing the dems are dogshit are a distinct minority, not because it's not true, or because it alienates the average Joe (the average Joe doesn't vote because this line is already his baseline opinion) we remain a politically active minority because we don't control any substantial media apparatus or fundraising network, be honest you probably didn't even know Biden deported twice as many people as Trump, you probably assumed it was the opposite, didn't you? You know why that's the case, because you consume media the enforces that erroneous belief
I'm not saying cash transfers don't matter. I'm saying "Trump gave me more cash, end of story" is a really bad take. I don't see any leftist org taking that line, just online contrarians.
That was the big exception, not the rule. The only leftist org that does serious entryism is the DSA, which 10 years ago wasn't even a factor. What passed for the left from basically the 70s to Bernie trotted out "both parties are the same" all the time -- see that RATM video playing clips from the 2000 campaign where Bush and Gore were saying startlingly similar things.
Besides rhetoric, the only difference between a hypothetical Trump and the real Biden that most have materially experienced is the decrease of checks. Trump probably would've stroked his ego by giving more money again afterwards while Biden just lied about his promise to be austere. Biden being slightly less transphobic hasn't changed the way that transphobia hurts our trans comrades in any way, and their treatment will likely only get worse during crises of capitalism with either Biden or Trump. Trump would've celebrated Row v Wade being shot, but Biden's fake weeping hasn't provided a single extra person with more abortion rights.
You can keep trying to talk to people about their non-material reality the way news-media does and concede that the democrats are different, or you can figure out how to talk about people's material needs in a way that encourages real action and movement to overthrow that system. It can't be "the dems and repubs are the same" it's that they are two weapons of capital. That's a possible way to get through to people. Good cop bad cop analogies
The left has a thin list of RECENT successes because there is no left there making any meaningful analysis of the conditions in a settler-colony propped up by external imperialism but still experiencing exploitation on top of that. Correctly identifying the primary contradictions and the relations to the others is work that you gotta do before stubbornly insisting something, sure. But there are people who udnerstand that and you're not one of them, it seems. The left had successes that lead to concessions which improved people's lives materially, but these ultimately were captured and reused to hurt elft movemetns.
OK so make this argument to people instead of "Trump gave me more money, period."
Sure but were among comrades here. We all know that the original poster of that claim understands this because its absolutely visible to all and requires no in depth analysis as well as being a mainstream position. The radical addition that "trump gave me money and others got it too, so it makes some sense that people like him" is not this mainstream and was the claim being made.
I don't think so. "Trump gave me more cash so he was better" pops up on here plenty and I always get dug-in opposition when I point out it's a terrible take.
suck my dick
the outlawing of abortion was a long term process that the Democrats supported, from running anti-abortion candidates over pro-abortion (Henry Cuellar), not codifying it into law during the Clinton, Obama or early Biden admin, not stacking the supreme court and letting RPG rot on the bench until she died at the age of 103 instead of replacing her. This isn't "oh, they didn't do enough to stop the Republicans", they allowed it to happen because it was politically advantageous to do so, just like how the Biden admin stopped giving a shit about covid 0.00001 ms after the election was called.
Again, suck my dick. The Democrats blocked another round of stimulus payments that Trump wanted to get out the door before elections (cash out of my pocket), and then the Biden admin cut $600 from these checks. No, whoever is willing to give everyone cash like the stimulus payments deserves the public's support, and if the oppositional party doesn't want to look like the austerity ghouls that they are, they should cut us a bigger check. It's not just that the Trump admin wound up doing more for me, it's that the Biden admin has done nothing. I got $5k in savings and got to see a doctor under the Trump admin, Biden took that away. There isn't a lesser of two evils point you can make with regards to Biden. It's not "making us look like cranks", if anything telling the non-politically aligned dweeb on the street "hey, your life is better under the guy that gave you nothing, actually" is so disconnected from not just their reality, but the reality of other posters in this thread that I hope to god you're a fed and didn't arrive at this ideological train-wreck organically.