Not just here, but also on reddit and other social media.
Sure, there is a propaganda war brewing wherein a lot of Western media are pushing exaggerated narratives, Adrian Zenz is a theological dope of an academic, and the CIA has a vested interest in accelerating conflict, etc. but surely there's got to be room to also address the shortcomings of China as well? Whether it's about LGBTQ+ issues, or the exploits of Chinese capitalism, or being able to criticize or make fun of Xi, I see posts here routinely and systemically brigaded and comments downvoted to oblivion that even sniff at criticism of China.
I consider myself a free agent, and China's meteoric rise gives me some hope for a brighter tomorrow (in contrast to the US), but this blatant campaign of social media manipulation gives me pause for concern. It just screams insecurity and makes me not trust what feels like a counter-propaganda narrative. (Mods, please never get rid of the downvote counter.)
Anyway, here's hoping for a brighter future, but please let ideas breathe.
Thanks for listening.
I think I can count on one hand the amount of times those topics are brought up about China in good faith. Maybe you've seen it more often and seen the brigades more than me
My thing is, why is it always China lol. No one comes into these spaces with scorching hot takes about the LGBTQ rights in Laos or the economic systems of Cuba. It's a lot of CHINA CHINA CHINA, which between the current culture, and trying to deprogram baby leftists, it's really hard to spot good faith discussions/let them grow. And the thing that really sucks is every good China discussion is like 1 rogue comment away from name calling, it's hard to stay on track
Because China's economic and LGBTQ+ circumstances will have a much, much, much more appreciable impact on my life in the coming years than Cuba or Laos.
Oh word, you live in China? I didn't realize, my bad
Don't be obtuse. China is the rising power to the US's established power; of course people are going to scrutinize it more than Laos or Cuba.
If you do not live within China's sphere of power, your day to day life is equally impacted by China or Laos or Cuba lol. It's really not that hard to grasp that. Offering critiques of China does not change its policy, and likely just contributes to the current anti-China narrative
The correct goal of critique here is certainly not to affect Chinese policy; it is to understand and evaluate it in keeping with our continual development as students of historical materialism. China, as the largest, most advanced, most populous, and most prominent socialist country on Earth, is naturally both an important country to study and one that invites curiosity. If we are truly committed to scientific socialism, we really ought not to discourage that.
I understand that. But if your attempts at engaging in scientific socialism causes you to criticize China, and only China, you're not doing it in good faith. Either be critical of every socialist project (in good faith discussions) in order to build your view, or shut the fuck up about China
It is indeed important that we examine many different examples of socialist projects and states in general.
Again, we should encourage leftists of every variety to do so and to do so properly using the tools of historical materialism and dialectics. It is not encouraging to dismiss any inquiry into China as either irrelevant or as bad faith without the inquirer having already demonstrated their analysis of other projects. The Soviet Union and PRC are the first and most obvious states to examine. Yes, a focus on a single state is not sufficient! It quickly becomes clear in material analysis that we cannot understand why a state does one or another thing without also examining the conditions of the moment and the historical conditions that led up to that moment and informed the response, which naturally leads us to broaden our inquiries. In this way, we can both refine our own practice of applying historical materialism and help others do the same.
This is not to say that every question must be engaged with, but it is certainly not harmful on balance to lead people into a more useful way to examine China and, consequentially, all states.
I agree with all this, and sorry I wasn't trying to claim that you need to be critical of multiple countries to have a good faith discussion.
But I do think it is incredibly apparent when someone is having a good faith, scientific-socialism-driven discussion, vs someone wishing to tear down China and using scientific socialism as an excuse to do so. I'm receptive to the first example, and shut down the second on sight.
Seeing how OP brought up China's influence on Disney as a shield for their views, they clearly fall into that second category, and I'm not gonna play nice and let it happen. For me it's more about someone reading the conversation after the fact and what they walk away with. If we allow bad faith discussions to occur because we are afraid of killing good faith ones, we are gonna get a lot of 'leftists' with very warped views and warped justifications for those views.
It's a tough nuance to hit, but I want to see us do it properly, and not just sit back and allow bad faith bullshit to fester in our spaces
I also agree that this thread is framed very poorly and aggressively if it is in fact trying to address this difficult issue. I just finally felt able to organize my thoughts on this meta-discussion.
I've seen good threads on here about specific criticisms of the Soviet Union that ended with a richer understanding of the situation, fewer on China. Ratcheting tensions and a living, contemporaneous state definitely make things more difficult. I hope we can continue to cultivate a healthy culture here that enables considered and constructive discussion while expediently dispelling common misconceptions or deliberate misrepresentations.
If they don't live in Cuba or Laos either, then why are you requesting hot takes?
That wasn't my point. People bring up these criticisms of China and hide behind the claims they are critiquing a socialist country/its policies. But hey isn't that weird, that they are only motivated to critique countries that are currently the target of US imperialism?
If you want to discuss AES countries and their flaws, and you only ever do this for China, just be open and honest and say you hate China for whatever absurd reason and move on
never ask members of the communist party of the philippines why joma maria sison called for attacks on BRI projects which were simultaneously sanctioned by the philippine govt and the USA from the netherlands worst mistake of my life
They increasingly own a lot of media and exert influence around the world. Tencent, Huawei, partnerships with Disney, etc. These things don't happen in a bubble.
China's indirect influence through those pale in comparison to the influences of whatever native country is in question. Like do you really think China's views on LGBTQ+ people, filtered through Disney or Tencent, really makes more of a difference than Disney's own policies, or the cultural hegemon here? We should focus on our own shit
But I want to blame China for Disney's racism and homophobia :( Don't make me face reality.
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Little known fact, the Chinese are the reason Walt was an anti-semite. No I won't explain