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  • sailorfish [she/her]
    ·
    edit-2
    4 years ago

    I think each language is gonna have to figure out a good way to do it and not take its cues from English, that's true. I can say that in German (which lies between English and Romance languages on the gendered spectrum) there's a lot of work being done and it's not really equivalent to what's done in English. E.g. addressing a group of students gender-neutrally - Studenten (m) and Studentinnen (f) - is typically Student_innen (m + f + the underscore for non-binary) in Austria, or Studierenden ('the studying ones') in Germany. Adding adjectives and new pronouns is ofc more difficult. As is pronouncing it!

    Moreover, as gender neutral alternatives started being promoted in the 80s by feminists, the existing gender neutral versions oriented themselves towards 'including women', and who knows, maybe it's better to scrap the old ideas and build different ones to include non-binary people from the start. I.e. in the 80s the idea was to use StudentIn and StudentInnen (yes, with a capital i in the middle of the word, called Binnen I) to include women, and then the non-binary-"gap" Student_in was added later with the acceptance of queer theory. I'm not actually sure what non-binary German speakers would prefer - I'm guessing like with English speakers, there's no real consensus on what's best yet.

    I also speak Russian and there the situation is more like in Romance languages, being extremely difficult to avoid gendering. I follow exactly one non-binary Russian speaker on Twitter lol, so I can only say that they use a "combined" pronoun of он 'he' + она 'she', written as он_а . I've also seen Russian feminists use a gender neutral Он_а пошл_а в магазин 'they went to the store'. For me it seems like they're taking their cues from German here, completely independent of what English speakers do, but maybe they're taking their cue from no one.

    All of this stuff looks a little clunky when written out like that, but imo it's completely a matter of getting used to it. In Austria the StudentIn (if not the non-binary gap version) has become increasingly common over the last decade. It went from being something I only saw in queer + radical left circles as a teenager to finding it in job ads or street signs (keine RadfahrerInnen = no bicyclists). Actually, being in Germany, where it hasn't gained such a wide acceptance, is weirder now. The Russian version still looks weird to me (though I personally like it haha, I'm doing a PhD in linguistics focusing on internet communication, so I just LOVE people playing with their language in general), but give it a decade and I'm sure my feelings will change. Or maybe Russian speakers will invent something else completely! Sorry, all this was a very long post to say that I agree we shouldn't take our cues from English speakers, I feel very strongly about the awfulness of English language imperialism too, but we should totally take our cues from non-binary people and feminists in our own languages.

    Btw I think direct translation is kind of a separate issue. There's also issues of translating, say, Japanese into English because in Japanese you can use gender-neutral third-person pronouns. This is ofc a problem when it's a mysterious new character in an anime that the fansubbers have to either call 'this one' or decide for themselves (often wrongly) what pronoun the others mean :P