Translation:
My personal opinion, for those who are interested, is that these two instances (Hexbear and Lemmygrad) are filled with what we call here nazbols, tankies, or even left-wing fascists.
They are primarily authoritarians who like to call themselves leftist, but use the same tools, have the same political vision, the same organization, and politically and historically tend to ally with “official” fascists as soon as a truly revolutionary leftist movement emerges.
I found it tolerable to “do nothing” as long as they stayed in their corners, but I had somewhat forgotten that an authoritarian remains an authoritarian and that the only place they deserve is down a well, not forgetting to strike the hands that try to escape with a big stick.
For starters, this is largely gish-gallop. You never back up any of your claims, and you strawman claims I have never made. These two logical fallicies make up the structure of your comment, gish-gallop a bunch of claims I never made and then "dunk" on them. I'll go section by section.
This is the "China Bad" section. You begin by making racist claims that "Chinese assimilation" is so core to Chinese identity that it is an inevitability. You also at one point side with the British Empire with respect to Hong Kong, and again provided no evidence that the majority wish to break away from the PRC in any case.
Anansi, I need you to carefully consider any subject that leads you to side with the worst Empire in the world in a way that you materially benefit from. Be hyper-skeptical, don't just side with the West and accept its narrative whole cloth, because you have every material reason to.
This section is categorized by the running stream "Marxism bad." Anansi, you make it extremely clear that you have never read Marxist theory beyond perhaps the Manifesto, because you make numerous foundational errors in this section.
Equating Xinjiang to Palestine when they are entirely different situations. Here's an idea: compare approval rates for the CPC and/or the PRC in Xinjiang and approval rates for Israel in Palestine.
The claim that Communists have sided with fascists against Anarchists is unsubstantiated, when we know for a fact the USSR supplied the Spanish Anarchists materially.
The idea that the State "withering away" means that at some point the government needs to dissolve itself and "give itself back to the people," when Marx's idea of Communism is a fully centrally planned publicly owned economy and that the Marxist idea of a State is different from the Anarchist idea of a State
The claim that Anarchists are "more" left than Marxists, which is nonsense ideology measuring and has no materialist basis, both Marxism and Anarchism are left regardless
The idea that we do not organize is false, many of us are members of Communist or Anarchist orgs and do good work on the ground
All utterly nonsense and unbacked.
You fully believe that Marxists support Marxism because they are power-level scalers? Why then do they side with national liberation movements like in Palestine, Hawaii, the Sahel States, the Aztlan people, and more? This claim is additionally unsupported, an "I believe it so it's true" claim.
See, that's not my stance. This is you, yet again, demonstrably failing to analyze Marxist positions. If you just pretend Marxists purely side against the West, you can make the false claim that Marxists would... support the west? It's farcical. Here's a hint: the Communists sided against the fascists committing the Holocaust and liberated Aushwitz, doing far more of the fighting than any Western nation that would have had the Nazis and Communists kill each other off.
Remarkable, no actual analysis of Marxist history. The Soviets could have liberalized at any time, but did so later in their existence, why? The PRC is a mostly publicly owned economy with strong central planning despite reintroducing foreign Capital, why? Cuba is still Socialist despite brutal sanctions because of it, why? You have no analysis. Here's an excerpt from Engels with respect to Markets, from Principles of Communism:
Marxists don't advocate for Socialism because of any moral reason, but because Capitalism itself forms large monopolist syndicates ripe for central planning and public ownership. You cannot simply "will" these structures into existence, that's why Communists can't abolish Private Property outright. A good article on this is Why Public Property?
Democratic Centralism is not a "farce." It is not farcical to state that the group is bound to the results of democratic votes. Socialist states have made great democratic strides, even if they haven't been perfect immediately. A good article on this is Why Do Marxists Fail to Bring the "Worker's Paradise?" It goes over the materialist basis for democratic structures, and how they must be built, not simply commanded into existence.
You could read works like Marxism and the National Question or The Right of Nations to Self-Determination, or look at how the USSR supported national liberation movements in Palestine, Algeria, Cuba, Korea, and more. Or, you could just smugly gesture and make no points, I guess.
You can look at history and see who was served by the Communists and who was served by the fascists. Again, read Blackshirts and Reds. Equating the Nazis with the Communists is fascist apologia.
Socialist States have used starw power to continue to exist, yes.
You didn't "dunk" on anyone. You gish-galloped, acted smug, and offered no reading nor analysis. I have read roughly 3 dozen Marxist works and history books on the subject, including academic works. Smugly acting like I haven't and offering no theory or academic works you think would be helpful is worthless grandstanding.
The fact is, I disagree with you because I've read academic literature, history books, and Marxist theory, and nothing you've said meaningfully challenges it.
Yes but have you considered that you don't know the Chinese story with the frog? Checkmate silly tankie.
That Habsburg-assed frog motherfucker is a disgrace to the name Anansi; 106% that's a thieving cracker who wouldn't know the FIRST story about that god.
They probably don't even know about Tiger's balls!
Not the frog
They'll just do the non-falsiable orthodoxy thing. If approval is high it's because the authoritarian government rigged the polls. If approval is low it shows the will of the people to resist their evil [Slurs but in French] tankie redfash oppressors.
Shock horror:
Do these weirdos ever try to account for the vast amount of media coming out of Palestine, a tiny concentration camp, compared to the total lack of any media showing genocide in Xinjiang, a fucking enormous largely mountainous and desert province?
But China is authoritarian and Israel is—
no I don't think they stop to think.
No need to bother when someone else has already done the thinking for you.
Yeah, projection again. Last time I've provided sources you told me that it was just gish galoping too lol
I'm also trying to cite all your comments I'm responding to, to avoid such claims but well...
No, this is China not perfect section. Starting with a straw-man.
Yes, because historical materialism is now racism.
It is also racist to consider that the history of power structures in a country/region will impact future power structures.
If you see me illustrating that this is still the way China handle other cultures/ethnicity by using the case of Hong-Kong as a support of english colonialism, you might need to also reflect again about straw-manning.
There was and still is an HK independence movement, the "umbrella revolution" and the overall repression of dissent by mainland China during this time. Maybe they are a minority, but we'll never really know since there was no effort to ensure that the people of HK can actually decide for themselves.
See, I'd tell you to also carefully consider what you're willing to accept just because some country sides against another you don't like, to be hyper skeptical and not just side with China while accepting its narrative whole cloth, because you want to be right.
China as a whole could do better, and should do better as probably the last country not yet completely gangrened by capitalism. While the BRI is probably the best policy that ever came up for international development and cooperation, especially since it's the only thing that can actually challenge the hegemony of the west, it doesn't excuse the fact that part of it come from ethnic cleansing/forced assimilation/genocide/whatever term you like.
Taking this as an endorsement of western colonial and imperial politics is either fanaticism or bad faith.
You acting like China doesn't have propaganda that is used to serve its interest. Accepting all their declaration as gospel is as naive as believing any propaganda about China coming from the west.
You reducing this whole section as me dismissing all China did is on point for tankies, but missing the actual point.
Sure bud.
I'm sure approval rates in one case or the other won't suffer from any kind of bias. I'd trust equally the measure of the approval rate taken by Israel in Palestine that I'll trust the one taken by the PRC in Xinjiang.
I'd be glad to get the numbers though, especially if it's coming from a source that can be trusted and take into account the difference between settler votes and "native" population.
What you're missing, is you completely dismissing the question of self determination when we're talking about Xinjiang, but not in the case of Palestine, which I again refer as performative due to the cognitive dissonance needed to have this standing.
I mean, that could be my bad I guess for not providing sources, I thought this was part of history teaching everywhere. The purges in spain organized by the NKVD of anti-Stalinist factions and members, like Nin, Robles, Berneri or the overall POUM is not a secret nor was it ever even denied.
This covers a bit more in depth the infighting between the "non Stalinian" front and the USSR lead militia, if you're actually interested. The author can't also really be seen as a CIA agent.
I could also talk about the history of the spanish national front, the influence of the USSR lead comintern in its policies and alliances that created a climate of instability that was strong enough to make it possible for Franco to start shit, if you want, but that'll take quite a bit longer and is far more publicly documented.
Yes, not sure we're disagreeing here? The democratic centralism comes not from Marx, but from Lenin in his own interpretation of Marx, though, unless you're equating socialism and democratic centralism, which is a bit far fetched.
Marx himself did not really give any "plan" for what "communism" was, did not even really differentiate between "communism" and "socialism", and was pretty tame in his late life when writing his critique of the program of the german worker's party about their view of what communism was.
The withering of the state is also nice and all, but was pretty much put into the backseat when Stalin adapted Lenin's work about Marx's work too, which he also did for anything related to auto-determination rights. This kinda started the split between classical/traditional marxism and state socialism, not sure why you're mixing up everything here, nor what point you're trying to make.
I'm not talking about "being more left", but about ruining other leftist revolutionary movements to cement yours as the only alternative, while at the same time destroying the core values of communism to end up an authoritarian state capitalist societies with as much exploitation as any other capitalist country, while in the meantime making "communism" a bad word.
Sure.
That is not what you asked tho. "Who forms their political ideology around supporting use of authority, and not based on analysis of material conditions and who modern structures serve"
I was also talking about tankies.
You, indeed, tankies, support authoritarians regimes that lost what they could have of "communist" decades ago, while trying to paint any critic as propaganda or counter-revolutionaries.
Tankies side with them because on the opposite side, it's the US, by contrarianism.
When it's not the US or its allies, then it doesn't matter, which is my point, and what I called performative earlier.
Actual marxists, trots, or even leninists would side with national liberation movements for what they are though, but would also side with the Xinjiang liberation movement. If I wanted to be funny, I'd say that even Staline was supporting Xinjiang independence, but we both know that was for control over the natural resources of the region, which is also why the PRC does not want it to secede.
This is you again thinking that tankies are actual marxists and not just cosplayers, and thinking I put both in the same bag.
Same remark as above.
(putting the rest in another comment)
That isn't what you said. You said, and I quote
Which is pure bullshit and completely flies in the face of historical materialism. Not only have you failed to explain how "clanic and dynastic organisation of chinese provinces" is relevant to the forced assimilation of minorities, but you have also failed to explain how this "impacts future power structures". Are you saying that the PRC is organised on clan and dynastic lines?
And furthermore, the idea that thousands of years of forced assimilation of minorities would be continued despite the transition of the mode of production from slavery all the way to primitive socialism is completely absurd and flies in the face of historical materialism. You have not posited a historically contingent/transient process, you have posited a static unchanging constant of Chinese culture, which is apparently to genocide minorities.
You have not even considered that the so called "sinicization" occuring today in China amongst minorities is simply the natural result of economic integration. Any nation is constituted of community of people united by language, territory and economic life. When underdeveloped minority regions are integrated into the broader national economy, they gradually loose their minority character. How do you think France came to be? Did the French nation simply exist from the beginning of time? Or did it form after various minority groups were brought under the same government under one market?
Furthermore, that you would compare palestine to xinjang betrays your lack of understand of either region's history and utterly privileged position as an imperialist, who cannot tell the difference between live streamed mass murder and economic development where God forbid, a people's culture is changing in ways you don't like.
Their argument is utterly farcical, and they dare to take the high-horse and pretend to understand Historical Materialism without even tying mode of production into the equation. Deeply silly.
But they provided sources now.
(Wikipedia links lol)
Can't make it up
Oh I'm aware, took down their nonsense already, but oh boy the gish-galloping.
Yes, after negotiating a split of Europe with them, because it was in their material interest to do so.
They were "biding their time" by sending german and austrians anti-fascists and communists to the Nazi regime, spreading in baltic territories and western europe, until they were themselves the target of the nazi regime.
They had material interests in their alliance with the nazis, and they only broke that alliance because they were fucked over, not because of ideology, "biding their time", or wanting to liberate people.
The "biding their time" excuse is also only used anymore by tankies due to the abundant proofs that the NKVD ignored all warnings about the Nazis maybe being bad people that were going to betray them, the most famous case being the one of Richard Sorge. This excuse was even said to be false by Gorbachev during the glasnost period, and the initial document made public.
They did it because they didn't really have the option of doing nothing anymore, else they'd have both fascists and capitalist going against them. They allied by material interest.
I mean this is kind of the consequence of Stalin's death, nobody in the party really wanting to be associated with Stalinism and what he did anymore, Khrushchev openly admitting that capitalist countries had better standards of living and promising to reach parity, while slowly having the communist sphere of influence reducing due to the cold war efforts to undermine communist regimes.
You cannot compete against a globalizing capitalist economy when you're not self sufficient and are losing allies, especially when your plan is to pretty much to build a modern country from the bottom.
Alienating China was pretty much the last domino that lead to the USSR having to implode sooner or later. Their "liberalization" was the last breath of their agony.
State owned, yes, not sure what is your underlying question.
If you're asking why they are not a liberal capitalist country, I'd add "yet" to the question.
The economical rise of China is pretty recent, and they're starting to produce billionaires that might still not have had the time to corrupt the whole political system like they did in western economies centuries ago.
Also, saying "reintroducing foreign capital" is a pretty dishonest way to present it.
The recent rise in economic power of China is born from the foreign capital of greedy western capitalists that saw China as an infinite source of cheap labor.
I'd like for China to not become another imperialist capitalistic parasite but I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case in a few generations.
Mostly because they represent nothing as far as geopolitics are concerned, that they are an island that make them more able to isolate themselves from international interference compared to large coutries like the USSR or China, and also using the military to keep the current power structure intact.
There is pretty much no will since the fall of the USSR to fuck even more with Cuba from the west, and no possibility to "leave" socialism if they ever wanted to, that's why. I'll also make clear that I'm not implying that Cubans want to change their government, just to defuse the incoming strawman, just that the material reality is that they can't.
Sure, not sure why you're then citing unrelated shit after that but you do you.
For someone that is proud to be knowledgeable about Marxism theory, I'm a bit surprised by that statement.
The whole point of Marx's analysis is that socialism is a natural consequence of the power struggle linked to capitalist production, which will irremediably lead to a proletarian revolution.
Marxists that want to accelerate this phenomenon absolutely do it for moral reason. Because they consider that capitalists exploit the proletariat, and that a change is required for more justice.
Marxists see the use of socialism, as in the broader marxist definition, as a way to replace the capitalists in the control of these "monopolist syndicates", yes. Not because they just happen to be there, but to repair a social injustice.
Yes, and I never even implied that?
Indeed, which is why I specifically wrote "Democratic Centralism in practice in your MLs countries irremediably end up as a farce", which I though was pretty clear in saying that there is a stark difference between actual Democratic Centralism, and what ends up with this name.
Yes, and again, I never even implied the contrary.
I could also point out that it strangely took Staline's death for that to happen, and that the differences between his early writings and what he actually did once in power are pretty stark.
Guess what happened to actual internationalists from Trotsky or Lenine's school of thought when Staline got into power.
Once again, seems that you think tankies are actual marxists, and that you'd rather take writing as material facts than actual material facts.
Sure bud.
How is me answering each of your points directly "gish-galloping?" How is me citing sources for my argument the same as your lack of citing evidence? I'm not talking about quoting me, but evidence.
It is not a strawman to say that you used this section to decry China. A strawman is making up an argument, not a disagreement in the implications of severity.
Claiming that China is assimilationist culturally makes no analysis of power structures, nor is this "Historical Materialism." Historical Materialism makes analysis of the mode of production and the class relations guiding society. Saying that China was assimilationist in the past, before Communist revolution and proletarian restructuring of society and claiming this assimilationism has economic ties to modern day China is wrong.
You were against China taking Hong Kong back, that implies you wished it remained with England. If you have a different stance, then make it.
What is a nation?
Yes, and there was and still is a pro-PRC movement in Hong Kong. See what people actually want before immediately siding with the Global North over the Global South.
I have been careful, and hyper-skeptical. Only you have been oversimplifying.
You call it a fact and support it with nothing. You claim it's because the spooky Chinese are assimilationists and genocidal ethnically, and use that to support your narrative.
Good thing I don't accept everything good and everything bad about China!
To be clear, you dismissed China as ethnically assimilationist and never once praised anything about China, so it's not hard to see you as anti-China, period. I answered the points you raised, of course I didn't answer whatever occupies your mind-palace alone.
Let's see how you defend the foundational errors you made with Marxism!
Why? Israel is a settler-colonial ethno-state built on stolen land, the PRC is just China. Seems your own bias is showing.
What would count as a source you trust?
I don't dismiss the question of self-determination. I question your determination for the residents of Xinjiang, rather than theirs. For Palestine we see daily slaughter, we just don't for Xinjiang, nor do we see large popular independence movements.
The Trotskyists allied with German and Francoist forces to kick off the May Day revolts, and the USSR stepped in. This has been documented via archival evidence. This is not a cut and dry case of the Communists siding against Anarchists with fascists, but a complicated instance of infighting. Why would the Soviets "switch sides?"
Yes, the anti-Communists often worked against the USSR. This was counter-productive for the Spanish civil war.
Probably would take a lot longer.
All "Democratic Centralism" means is that the whole is beholden to democratic decisions.
Marx predicted how it would function based on how Capitalism functioned and what it was leading towards, ie decentralized markets into central planning and public ownership. This is the entire point of Scientific Socialism, rather than Utopian. Socialism as a stage in evolution in mode of production, not as an ideal to implement. See Socialism: Utopian and Scientitic. Additionally, Marx did not soften his views in Critique of the Gotha Programme, rather, after the Paris Commune Marx learned that the previous state must be entirely dismantled and replaced.
Cont.
This is exactly why you have no idea what you're talking about. The State, in Marx's terms, is the structure that supports class oppression. It isn't the same as a government. Marx, Lenin, and so forth all operated on the same understanding of a state. From Engels, in Socialism: Utopian and Scientitic:
It is frustratingly evident that you have mere cursory knowledge of Marxism, and haven't even read the basics. You should also read The State and Revolution.
The USSR supported other revolutionary movements. It was a Socialist state upt until its dissolution, the idea that a centrally planned, democratically operated, publicly owned economy would be Capitalist beyond the NEP is perfect evidence of just how little you understand about Marxism.
Do you doubt that Communists organize? That's core to Communist belief.
You have demonstrated fundental and critical misunderstandings of Marxism, which I have carefully and thoroughly pointed out, and yet you sit on a high horse believing yourself to know better. This is absurd. Pray tell, what do you believe a Marxist is, if not a supporter of Marxist movements and an applicant of Marxist theory and practice?
We have explained to you that Marxists side with oppressed groups, as is in line with the Marxist theory of National Liberation and self-determination. Your claim is that we are contratians, and that is the sole factor, but yet have nothing to say when we point you to what we actually believe and why.
It's performative because we use Marxist analysis and are consistent with our views? Nonsense.
You, again, have no idea what the people of Xinjiang want. Independence and national liberation are not as simple as creating as many states as there are ethnic groups.
You have failed to demonstrate why we are not Marxists and Communists, and in fact showed that you have critical misunderstandings of Marxist theory.
Same remark as above.
For the, what, fourth time now? Read Blackshirts and Reds, if you aren't going to read Marx, at least read a short history book on how Communism and fascism were diametrically opposed since the beginning. The Nazis started attacking the Communists both inside and outside Germany, and the Soviets attacked the Nazis and tried to get thr Western Powers to notice the threat. During WWII, the Soviets were the largest anti-Nazi force, with 4/5ths of the total Nazi deaths at their hands.
It's famously known that Kruschev lied, confirmed with the opening of the Soviet Archives.
This is actually more correct analysis than anything else, though the USSR was not doomed, it was murdered from the top down in the final years.
I'm asking you to analyze the PRC from a Marxist lens.
The economic rise of China started under Mao. It stabilized under Deng. Read Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism.
Is it? That's what they did.
Partially, yes. This was the strategy employed by Deng, while the PRC had favorable agreements and a birdcage model over Capital. Read The Long Game and its Contradictions.
Why not? It's trending towards more public ownership and control. All this shows is that you aren't in touch with how China operates or where it is trending.
It couldn't be the high government approval rates and democratization, could it?
Cuba absolutely could pivot to a free market economy if they wanted. The US has continued to brutally sanction them to this very day.
All of what I said is related.
Shocker, the one who doesn't understand Marxism is surprised when encountering a Marxist that takes theory seriously.
Cont.
Bzzzzt WRONG. Marx's analysis is that Capitalism naturally forms monopolist syndicates over time, removing competition and replacing with association, prepping the capabilities of public ownership and central planning after revolution. From Marx himself:
Capitalism prepares the ground for Socialism.
I didn't say there were no moral reasons for wanting to move onto Socialism. I said Marxists believe Socialism to be the next step out of critical examination of Capitalism. This is Marxism 101.
More than a simple reparation of injustice, it is the only way to progress forwards. Economic structures follow the level of development of the Productive Forces. This is the basis of Historical Materialism! Socialism is necessary once these monopolist syndicates are formed to even consider progressing on.
You did, through the implication that introducing broader markets is a deviation away from Socialism.
There isn't, just gesturing and chauvanism on your part. Read Why Do Marxists Fail to Bring the "Worker's Paradise?"
You did, in implying their democratic structures were farcical.
I could also point out how these movements did not depend on Stalin.
Trotsky was actively hostile to the USSR, Stalin largely upheld Lenin's legacy. Stalin didn't make a stark departure from Lenin.
I am a Marxist, you claim I am not, and in fact am a "tankie." You have no justification for this, only your own lack of understanding of Marxism, as I have time and time again explained and supported with writings. You have provided little in the way of material evidence, I have provided much.
Indeed. If you don't even know what Scientific Socialism means or what Historical Materialism is, how can you claim authority over someone who has read several dozen essays, books, and more? You're deeply unserious.
I love you Cowbee
Can you provide details/sources for this? It'd be useful for dealing with a Khrushchev stan I know.
I have not read this book, fair warning, but Kruschev Lied is hosted over on Prolewiki.
While less directly related to Kruschev himself, Stalin: The History and Critique of a Black Legend is another book hosted on Prolewiki, though again I have not yet read it.
From seeing individual debunks of Kruschev over time, I was confident enough to say he lied, but for sources I would like to see a specific claim about Kruschev that can be debunked. I have not seen significant debunkings of either book I listed either, just political disagreement with the authors.
I would also read the ProleWiki article on Kruschev himself, even ignoring the wrecking he did in the party, even if he was 100% honest about Stalin, he still made opportunist reforms that helped spell the beginning of the end of the USSR.
Let me know if that helps and answers your question!
It does, thanks!
Great! Want to stress that I am comfortable with dogging on Kruschev, but haven't yet investigated the books I linked. I have seen them spoken favorably about, but this is the whole "no investigation, no right to speak" bit. I am not endorsing those books here, just saying that they seem to be a good place to start.
Take care!
I can jump in and say the Furr book is good, @BeamBrain@hexbear.net . The critiques I've seen mainly focus on his credentials rather than what he says. Those who do talk about what he says misinterpret the claims and try to brand him as an apologist.
From my recollection, he doesn't really 'praise' Stalin, except where the evidence does that of it's own accord. Instead, he's more discrediting Khrushchev and saying that for most topics, we need to do more research because we basically don't know much at all. In most cases, we now know that the accepted story is wrong.
It's a step to setting the record straight. You'd have thought that historians would love the invitation to re-do a whole field. Unfortunately, you know how it goes—generally they won't touch it because they like the fairy tale version.
The first half of the book is his analysis and interpretation of the speech. The second half is a compilation of the primary sources. If you're pushed for time and want to see some evidence that Khrushchev lied, pick and skim a claim, then flick to the corresponding section at the back to see what actually happened.
Appreciate it!
Theses:
These phrases have been current for more than 2,000 years. What is missing is (alpha) an understanding of the causes of exploitation; (beta) an understanding of the development of society, which leads to socialism; (gamma) an understanding of the class struggle as the creative force for the realisation of socialism.
Anarchism is bourgeois individualism in reverse. Individualism as the basis of the entire anarchist world outlook.
{ Defence of petty property and petty economy on the land. Keine Majorität.[1] Negation of the unifying and organising power of the authority.}
(Anarchism is a product of despair. The psychology of the unsettled intellectual or the vagabond and not of the proletarian.)
Absurd negation of politics in bourgeois society.
Failure to understand the role of the organisation and the education of the workers.
Panaceas consisting of one-sided, disconnected means.
– No doctrine, revolutionary teaching, or theory.
– Fragmentation of the working-class movement.
– Complete fiasco in the experiments of the revolutionary movement (Proudhonism, 1871; Bakuninism, 1873).
– Subordination of the working class to bourgeois politics in the guise of negation of politics.
Another cracker btfo; infinite Charlie Hebdos on your frog-assed country