We're as atomized and alienated as ever, but now we also can't afford to buy a house or raise kids. Libs will celebrate this.

  • FoolishPosadas [any]
    ·
    4 years ago

    Small business owners are impossible to radicalize because they are not the proletariat. Working home owners still have material struggles besides for housing.

      • Young_Lando [none/use name]
        1·
        4 years ago

        The fuck? There are people who work for a living so they can buy a place to live. The fact that it is a capital asset and literally a necessity for life is not the fault of the working class person. If you live in the thing you own, it's fuckin yours. Renters should also own the homes they live in and essentially pay mortgage on.

        Let's not lose the ball here. The problem is not the person who owns their own home-- it's literal capitalists who flip houses for $$$

          • FoolishPosadas [any]
            1·
            4 years ago

            House flippers are very different from home owners. Flippers are basically in the same category as Landlords.

              • Young_Lando [none/use name]
                1·
                4 years ago

                I would agree with this. The thing is, with regular recessions the collapse of housing markets as a result of over-financialization, not even these people can seriously make bread in the long term. They're bound to get crushed. Educating working class people on how to save their money and not blow it on capital assets is part of our job.

                  • Young_Lando [none/use name]
                    1·
                    4 years ago

                    There are ways to invest money that don't involve becoming the oppressor and exploiting the fuck out of people.

                    I'm not saying you get Central Park if you own stock or a house or some shit. I'm saying don't create more systems of oppression in your pursuit to survive and thrive in this hellworld.

      • Pezevenk [he/him]
        1·
        4 years ago

        Homeowners don't have employees to exploit their value and they can be wage slaves like everyone else. They can't exploit the value of their house so simply because, well, that's where they live in, they can't like rent it out unless they move out themselves in which case they have to start paying rent and it is usually a net loss and a hassle. In many countries home ownership rates are much, much higher than the US, and they are far more class conscious.

        People don't have a blindspot, it's just that your analysis is weird, and comes from the "good things are actually bad" school of thought. It is funny that you say "American leftists" because America actually has an unusually low home ownership rate especially among developed countries. Leftists living in countries with higher home ownership rates don't share this illusion.

          • Pezevenk [he/him]
            1·
            4 years ago

            Cars are capital. Owning a car makes you a capitalist. Computers are capital. Owning a computer makes you a capitalist. Basically the only way to not be a capitalist and be prone to become class conscious is if you're homeless and naked.

            Also if you don't secretly hate everyone, you're a liberal and a revisionist.

              • Pezevenk [he/him]
                ·
                4 years ago

                I am not a Christian, I wasn't brought up a Christian, and I am not into weird Christian self flagellating stuff so I'll pass.

                  • Pezevenk [he/him]
                    ·
                    4 years ago

                    I don't know or care which particular current is more self flagellating than the other. All I have first hand experience with is orthodox Christianity and they don't care much about original sins, they seem to be more concerned with being pissed at people, fantasising about getting back Hagia Sophia from the evil Turks, mumbling stuff in old Greek that no one understands and getting paid by the state.

              • Pezevenk [he/him]
                ·
                4 years ago

                First of all, their value isn't expected to increase everywhere. In many places it is the opposite. Second, that they have a finite life doesn't make them fundamentally different. Hell, houses have a finite life too, especially if they are old. Land doesn't but that's a different thing. But again, finite life isn't the distinguishing line between capital and non capital, the computers you have at work are not dissimilar from yours, but they are capital. Capital is only "capital" as long as you can realize its potential somehow. If you can't realize its potential because you live in it and don't trade it, don't rent it out, etc then it is not the same as the capital owned by landlords, small business owners etc. Because they are actually using it to make a profit, whereas the person who just buys a house to live in isn't, and isn't planning to. You could argue that if push comes to shove then they have selling their house as an option, but if push comes to shove to the point where they lose their house, then it's not very hard for them to reach class consciousness.

                  • Pezevenk [he/him]
                    1·
                    4 years ago

                    Working people who own a single home describes a very large percentage of the people I know because I live in a country with high home ownership rates. I don't doubt some of these people are obsessed with the value of their house etc, but that has more to do with ideological brainworms and temporarily embarrassed millionaire syndrome than any real material reason.

                    Even pretending like a retirement plan is on the same footing as even a small business owner because it kinda looks like M-C-M is vulgar analysis that disregards the kinds of relations that put capitalists in one camp, workers in another. Like, even in the case you outlined, you know what that person would prefer? They would prefer if they could have a decent retirement plan that didn't have to involve them selling their house (which is precarious anyways, especially after we've seen how badly the housing market can crash) and paying rent. So advocating for them having that option will always trump the secondary "interest" they have in keeping the value of their house high.

      • FoolishPosadas [any]
        1·
        4 years ago

        Is that asset enough to turn them away from the struggles of their own class though? Hell, I know a good deal of leftist's who still put into 401k for retirement. Those are capital assets are they not? People have to survive, and it doesn't look like capital is gonna fall anytime soon, who can fault someone for wanting to build a life for themselves. Obvious it's not the most ideal circumstances for radicalization but wanting less people to own homes so it's easier to push them left kinda sounds like accelerationism.