https://twitter.com/thepoeticgopher/status/1345883562168487936
Look Dore is an asshole and not very smart but its pretty obvious to people on the outside that y'all are playing softball with AOC because you think she can be president some day. Awful look for supposed socialists.
obviously it comes with perks like helping with movement building and public legitimacy but has its limitations beyond that, youre not some genius communist theoretician for saying electoralism bad and thinking youve discovered that were not gonna vote socialism in or something
We shouldn't play softball with the likes of AOC, but we should absolutely treat them with good faith. "Fuck you and everything you stand for you worthless sellout" is not treating someone in good faith. "You're worse than Pelosi" is not treating someone in good faith.
Nooo not my heckin AOCerino!!1! I promise she’s doing back-room deals! We have someone on the inside! Trust the plan!
stop being obsessed with aoc and politicians, its just as bad as people who idolize her
Stop being obsessed with the people denying healthcare during the pandemic? Just chill, huh?
the ppl supporting m4a arent the ones denying ppl healthcare and holding a failed vote wouldnt change that, you gotta do real organizing if you want healthcare idk what to tell u
The people supporting M4A support the people who are denying healthcare so yes they fuckin are
mate... a floor vote wasn't going to get you healthcare... a vote doesn't meaningfully affect public opinion. abandon hope in bourgeois politics.
No fucking shit it wasn't going to get anything, you commonwealth insect, it's about pressuring the leadership.
it's going to pressure no one into doing anything. try genuinely effective tactics.
there's no difference between the means and mechanisms of left and right politics. surely they're exactly the same. one definitely isn't in accordance with bourgeois interests and one opposed.
Lol and who are you implying is on the left in the US Congress?
I'm referring to the people trying to pull that particular lever - you are trying to convince leftists of some sort to take action, no?
What lever? The lever for democrats to do leftist stuff? I'm trying to force succdems into admitting they are liberals
you have a shit understanding of the world, if you want power you go build it, getting angry at aoc and posting about it online isnt considered praxis or organizing. self proclaimed communists getting wound up over congressional votes you hate to see it
Oh yeah just go build power out of some power bricks, why didn't anyone else think of that, self proclaimed socialists defending liberal democrats, desperately trying to use humor to distract from it lol
lol there's no phantom back-room deal here; she said three weeks ago that progressives were trying to get PAYGO scrapped, and they got PAYGO scrapped:
“They aren’t demanding anything” is an assumption - and a false one. These structural negotiations happen, they just aren’t live-tweeted.
These negotiations started months ago, & include House rules, PAYGO exemptions, committee makeup, vote commitments, investigations, etc.
She said what the plan was and why, then did it. You can disagree with whether that was the best plan possible, but pretending there's some scramble to ass-cover here is just horseshit.
Well she said before that she was trying to get a floor vote for M4A and that she didn't care if it means only 1 term, so why the change all of a sudden?
Maybe she figured out that if you toss your career away over something as inconsequential as forcing a vote guaranteed to lose, you're not going to get much done.
I don't want politicians who make big dramatic statements and come away with nothing. I want politicians who at least have a plan to get something material accomplished.
As if the career of a politician is supposed to mean anything to the left, and lmao trust the plan! You don't have a fucking plan, asshole.
You don’t have a fucking plan, asshole.
The biggest takeaway from this whole fiasco is that wrecker behavior like this needs to be shouted down, and people who continuously engage in it need to be shown the door.
Oh muh discourse, we can't have anyone wrecking an alliance with Speaker Pelosi! Think of the movement!
Imagine trying to get anything done with this type of nonsense getting thrown around. Absolute poison.
Yeah, imagine not being able to do the work of rubber stamping the war in Yemen, what a shame
Randomly tossing inflammatory distractions into totally unrelated conversations = wrecker shit, full stop
You mean like calling people wreckers for opposing Nancy Peloski?
We're going to have politicians of some stripe at least until we achieve full communism. If they're going to be there anyway, I want ones who at least have a plan to get something material accomplished.
if you have any faith left in politicians you are kidding yourself. this is like saying 'if we're going to have cops i want ones that will stand against police brutality.'
they don't exist and the belief that any politician will get anything material accomplished for us is a hinderance. the only way anything will ever change is if politicians are forced to change shit through protest. they wouldn't be there if they were going to do anything to help you. even the 'good ones' don't do anything except provide false hope and promote faith in the electoral process. maybe if people stopped deluding themselves that some politician actually represented them they'd be more inclined to organize.
Where did I say to have faith in politicians? I said they're a fact of life for the foreseeable future. Whatever you do, they're going to be there, and they're going to affect your life. Ignoring that is just surrendering ground.
this is like saying ‘if we’re going to have cops
Every single socialist state, without exception, has had cops. We're going to have cops until we achieve full communism, too, and it's absolutely the same discussion.
i dont give a fuck about AOC you people are just obsessed with being wreckers and not ever doing anything useful
Are you Silver Legion?
Is this the great struggle session that was foretold to dissolve chapo.chat for good?
“if you spend all your time complaining about politicians and getting caught up over congressional votes youre a liberal” send post
I usually support your struggle sessions, but this one seems contrived lol
If it were a handful of people, sure call them wreckers, but when its hundreds - its more like a marketing demographic.
Pressuring a floor vote was part of it in the context of working with 30 other national unions and progressive organizations in 2019 in the runup to the elections. Campaigning to "pressure politicians" to not vote for Pelosi and force a m4a vote is different and turned into a counterproductive shitshow with Jimmy Dore attacking everyone and calling them traitors and shit saying we dont need to organize and blaming DSA and nurses unions for this whole thing failing
Ok so how long did you want to wait for Pelosi and unions to agree to hold a vote?
politicians arent going to save us, idk why you want to stake your shit on just telling them you want them to do stuff, you gotta organize if you want to wield any sort of power
If politicians don't matter then why do you care whether or not they play nice with Pelosi?
i dont form parasocial relations with politicians or expect them to win victories for me and tweeting at them to do something isn't a strategy but actively dissuading people from doing actual work to organize people and wield collective working class power is a weird "winning" strategy to undertake but you do you
the whole "online isn't real" thing is tiring tbh, obviously it has its impacts, people with large platforms splintering people up doesn't help with anything. people have to actually waste time dealing with this kind of stuff when it happens
Well i hope thats the extent of it but its indicative of more serious underlying problems if a handful of wreckers can cause so many people to turn stupid af overnight. Everyone thats now yelling at each other was working together effectively this time last year. I know people who arent terminally online wont know anything about this whole dumb shit but like most people who organize are online so its just a huge waste of time for everyone to have to be arguing over stupid shit, like everyones overworked enough already this needs to be dissuaded or it will have real effects on things.
well i agree it doesnt matter to the larger movement but it still can send people down failed routes and i just feel weird not speaking out against it if i can, its not like online cant lead people to actually effective organizing, yeah maybe it doesnt have any huge impact but doesnt feel right disregarding people idk maybe i shouldnt care about any of this shit
Could we stop having struggle sessions over some electoralist bullshit? jfc
You won't be getting M4A one way or the other.
the whole point of this was to expose the squad - to show that they wont even do the bare minimum, there is so much wasted energy trying to reform the democratic party :xi-plz:
so you expose the squad and then people will do what? people seemed to have mostly gotten from all this that you actually just need to elect a squad 2.0 but on a 3rd party ballot line...
In b4 “we have to FTV to show how much power we don’t have so people will get mad”
I think I'm glad this discourse is happening only because it reminds me that all these media people are electoralist "progressives" that don't have any interest in an actual socialist movement. Whether its Nomiki Konst saying Jimmy Dore is doing violence by saying the f word or BJG thinking a hashtag campaign is important politics, they all need to be jettisoned from my brain because they literally don't matter and are not my allies.
no no no your displeasure with elected officials should manifest itself as placing even more importance on how they vote.
I just want a giant banner across this site saying "STOP TALKING ABOUT BOURGEOIS POLITICS! IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER!"
It is because its hugely counterproductive to actually getting these fucking idiots to organize a meaningful mass working class movement. Instead Jimmy is being a wrecker and just disenfranchising people and calling everyone a traitor and him and MPP are gonna send people down the useless path of failed third party tactics that theyre trying to elevate to some sort of genius winning strategy. There's no neat trick to building a working class movement, you gotta do the organizing work!
no smooth brain you do the work of building a mass working class movement, do you people not understand theres actual people in the streets actively organizing people to gain us actual power? how the fuck do you think any of this works
instead of worrying about these online shitfests over bourgeois politics, how about we all focus on being those people organizing in the streets?
Control of an entire galaxy? Liberals can more easily imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism
