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literally all the things westerners are projecting on China is happening in France.
:france-cool: anti french action :france-cool: : Fuck those baguete eating fools
Looking forward to see Adrian Zenz' take on this. I'm sure he's not just gonna ignore it, right?
being "led by God" in a quest against France>>>> being led by God in a quest against China
he would be so much cooler
Germans and being led by supernatural forces in quests against other countries, name a more iconic duo.
The French government are working at the racism factory 24/7 :france-cool:
This will result in girls not being allowed to go out in public instead of forcing them to remove their hijab
Yeah, like it’s forcing not go to school and then all sorts of issues when they can’t pass exams :(
What happens? "Some kids in my daughter's school wear hijabs so I guess I have to make her also wear a hijab now even though I had absolutely no intention before because reasons"? Yeah it must have happened to like 3 people in the world.
More like "Hmm maybe i shouldn't send my kid to school in hijab since there's nobody wearing it there and it could attract attention" to "Since there's some, why not send her in hijab too"
Allegedly the French Senate has no real authority to enforce this. As I understand the French Senate is a lot like the american senate, a bunch of geriatric reactionaries, but has zero power unless Parliament does says so (unlike the US).
I support the idea of banning these kinds of expressions of ethnic identity, but only if it's applied to just the French...and the British...and probably Germans, and the Swiss (of course)...and Hungarians and Romanians.
Who else am I missing?
Well, they're kinda funny. I would miss them, unlike the French.
I love Russians. They rub all the right people the wrong way. I gotta have some abrasive untermensch solidarity.
It would be cool if they also banned minors from wearing crosses, yarmulkes, prayer beads and any other article of religious indoctrination. This is just racist.
I disagree with the new law because it's just going to make racial tensions a lot lot worse, and obviously comes from a place of racism rather than sectarianism (even if its masqueraded as the latter) - but none of those things you listed are the same as Hijabs. A cross or Yarmulke isnt worn to dissuade male temptation or to maintain some bullshit archaic standard of modesty in women. France have had controversy surrounding nuns wearing a habit before, which is more similarly aligned to what a hijab does.
On the other hand, it is silly to think that all the Hijabis wear it for that exact same purpose. Many wear it for a lot of different reasons.
Yeah, like try travelling through windy desert without one, be it male or female. It’s as much a cultural signifier as religious.
If a culture's survival is dependent on women wearing a garment to suppress the "uncontrollable" desires of men, that culture is probably not worth saving. Hijabs are bad and misogynistic, this law is bad and racist, these positions are not mutually exclusive. Is banning FGM cultural genocide?
congrats, your feminism happens to align precisely with the civilizing project of european white supremacists
Yes or no, is oppositiom to FGM cultural genocide? Also, for the last fucking time with you people, I'm not white. Just because my feminism agrees with this aspect of colonialism, doesn't make it wrong. The social values of Stalin's USSR are aligned with modern conservatives, does that make conservatism good or socialism bad? Or can we just agree that there is no commutative property of morality?
Yes or no, is oppositiom to FGM cultural genocide?
Fuck off with this false equivalence bullshit. Chopping up kids' genitals so they don't do sex stuff isn't even on the same plane of existence of Bad Things as wearing a fucking hat. Is it a dated and sexist practice? Yeah, it is, but this bullshit law is specifically targeting Muslims based on racial prejudice—pretending it's anything but that tells us you're a pretty shitty intersectional feminist.
Let us respond to your shitty bait question with another shitty bait question. Do you get Big Mad on the Internet about:
- Catholic nuns' veils?
- Catholic bishops' miters?
- Orthodox monks' kamilavka?
- Jews' sheitel?
- Jews' yarmulke?
- Jews' kippah?
- Sikhs' dastar?
If you only get mad about the hijab—surprise!—you may need to re-assess if your opposition is rooted more in feminism, or more in racism.
Assume good faith and see comment from same comrade below, jesus christ. Why so argumentative
Umm I literally said in my previous comment that yarmulkes and crosses should be banned.
Liberalism has engendered this false value that "cultures" need to be respected and have some nebulous right to self determination, but how far should we take that? This is why a classless society is the only solution.
Let's take this narrative and turn it on its head and place ourselves in an alternate history where the middle eastern peoples had gone on the offensive after the crusades. Now imagine the British Isles colonized by Muslims and Anglo immigrants to Arabic nations attempting to practice primae noctis amongst their own communities. Would the dominant culture be practicing "brown supremacy" because they pass laws outlawing this practice to protect citizens from rape? Are they engaged in cultural genocide because they are trying to restore agency to an underclass within an underclass? Stop acting like everything you associate with "white" culture is bad or you risk becoming an apologist for some pretty vile stuff.
I think clothes are kinda different on the totem-pole of “shit parents make kids do” to mutilation, so fgm part I think is a kinda bad faith-ish part of your comment. But sure, forcing clothes on kid is also bad, just less bad.
The wise man solemnly bowed his head...
If your "value system" tells you that someone wearing a little cross and chopping up children's genitals is on the same footing them something is wrong with said "value system".
CW: sexual assault, mutilation
spoiler
Yep, you got me. Chopping up kids genitals and raping slave women is the same thing as hats. Damn, I'm owned.
C'mon. It's a way to signify an identity. No one's actually getting raped or not raped because of a hijab. I just had a passover dinner. It's not because I actually thought the angel of death killed a bunch of Egyptians and spared the Jews. I did it to express some Jewishness.
If you don't participate in passover, you probably won't get the same reaction as removing your hijab
I'm sure in both cultures you would get reactions that range from shrugging to apocalyptic freakout.
The important thing is where central tendancy would lie, and from my experience, a family just shrugging when hijab is no longer worn is pretty rare
They absolutely are being raped because of a hijab. It's indoctrination to a culture that others women and identifies them as less than. Women are devalued in the eyes of men and stripped on their agency and self esteem. It's a tool of the patriarchy and analogous to western rape culture.
It's true. They do live in a society with gender norms, which will surely change when expressions of their ethnic identity are criminalized.
So attack the racist motivations behind the law, then. Or does the idea of critical support only apply when supporting non-western aligned morality.
I am opposed to the racist motivations, and I'm also opposed to banning hijabs.
Forcing women to wear hijabs is really terrible and the traditional reason they are worn is reactionary but what you are saying is also really dumb and bad, pretty much epic Internet atheist tier stuff.
That you want to literally ban people wearing religious symbols and cultural signifiers. Which is really, really dumb and bad.
Because it makes no sense. I can't even figure out where you are going with it. Do you think individualism is when you allow people to do some stuff slightly different from other people? But then it makes even less sense for cultural practices because cultural practices are collective, it's the opposite of what seems to be your idea of individualism. Either way it really doesn't matter because it is an entirely incorrect way to approach the issue and a large misunderstanding of what individualism means in marxism.
Women are being raped because of hijabs? What does that even mean?
You know we're talking about hijabs, which are like, a scarf, and not even burqas, right?
You may disagree with a culture, but how does you policing what people wear, religious or otherwise, help anyone, if it is not causing direct harm. If we're talking about FGM or foot binding or skull shaping or something that is a "cultural or religious practice" that permanently debilitates women, then, yeah, that's no good. But it's a scarf that covers hair. I know lots of progressive, fucking amazing Muslim women who wear hijabs and kick ass. They wear it to be closer to their god and their religion, not because it signifies deferance to men.
It is a different situation in say, Saudi or Iran where it is mandatory - however, that is also overreach on governments policing clothing.
Your argument to me is based on some iteration of Islam that I haven't experienced, and I'm not sure that outside of religiously ruled countries it exists. For that reason, it has a sense of Islamophobia - that is, policing the clothing of Muslim people. You're choosing the default culture, and you're choosing it to be in line with Western white anti-theistic ideals.
I simply recognize that the dominant culture in Islamic countries is misogynistic, homophobic and transphobic. And hell yes I'm anti-theist, but that is not "western". I'm fiercely anti-capitalist, anti-racist and anti-individualist, I'm as least western as they come. I'm definitely a chauvinist, but it's moral, not cultural. Also I explained exactly how a hijab others women and removes their agency, but I see you've chosen not to engage with that topic at all and instead decided to call me, a non-white person who wasn't raised in the hegemonic western culture a western chauvinist.
If you ignore what I wrote about having the government dictate mandatory hijabs, as in Saudi and Iran as being bad, and yea, misogynistic, then I guess you could say I "didn't engage". If you don't ignore that, and instead see where I said that women outside of those countries are choosing to wear hijabs are celebrating their religion as a personal choice, then you might see my point of view better.
Just because you're not white and not "Western" doesn't mean that your chauvinism doesn't align with white western ideals.
I am against mandated headscarfs in theocratic autocracies, but this has little to do with mandated no-headscarfs in other countries.
You are coming at this from a moralistic ideological stance. You can't tell women what to wear and then claim that this is improving their agency. You are morally against this but you are morally against the culture - so it is in fact cultural, and it's a cultural difference that is against the white western culture being superior - from a moral perspective. When this type of thinking is directed against Muslims this is where it lines up with Western white chauvinism.
This is a bit of a trek to get from "the government shouldn't mandate what people wear" to suggesting I support all breadth of individualist arguments.
I suppose a certain amount of individualism under capitalism is in fact classist, racist, and exploitative, but removing any libertarian, self sufficiency nonsense and looking strictly at clothing and style and personality, people should be able to be who they are and who they want to be. I don't think this is a concept at odds with left wing economic systems.
I think we disagree that a headscarf in general is detrimental to society. I don't think it is, and you do think it is. Unfortunately, I have too many really cool empowered women examples that will sway me that outside of a theocracy there is anything bad about hijabs.
Hijabs are bad and misogynistic
A very western chauvinist way of viewing it, sure. Would you also presume to tell natives what they can and can't wear?
But again, native desert people in their place of birth (before air conditioning) would all wear something similar, no?
Also, this is again tilting in strange arguments, go have fun in struggle session, law is undoubtedly racist and will increase ethnic tensions, and lead to further absence of solidarity.
No actually in a socialist society people are allowed to do what they want and not be told what to do by an outside authority that something they choose to do is illegal.
I will, thank you. I just would like to go 1 day on this website a defense of muslims from racist policy without seeing bad defenses of shitty cultural practices.
