I believe you pay for the privilege too.

I don't think you need to organise a specific false-flag style plan, when starting shit and then falling to the ground screaming at the refs has been your standard practice for decades. Especially when 'the refs' in this case are the reactionary media/state apparatus that has thier own multitude of interests in promoting Zionism and supressing dissent (dependence on the US, weapons sales, political contributions, media grants, growing unrest at home about declining conditions, Israel as a laboratory for oppressive foreign and domestic policy etc).

The original reporting in Hebrew before the trip said Mossad agents were travelling with the team rather than the fans. I'm not saying that it impossible or even unlikely that some may have enjoyed joining their fash cohorts in putting the boot into people they hate either on the streets over those two nights or in the political and media response afterward, but just for the sake of accuracy I think that's worth mentioning.

There is no doubt however that the Israeli state has a number of well-oiled machines and even government departments whose entire purpose is to do this whenever they believe they can take advantage of events and twist them to their benefit. Most states do this to some degree, but Israel puts an absurd amount of money, technology, and manpower behind their efforts even comparatively.

I think it's business as usual.

I've had my criticisms of the way this was handled and of the behaviour of some mods in response, but I think it's a real shame that Carcosa seems to feel the need to step away. Their effort here doesn't go unrecognised and I hope they'll be back, when they're ready.

It really feels like we've lost one the people who was actually willing to talk to the community, does self-crit, and even admidst the storm was consistently willing to engage. Exactly the sort of person who should continue being one of the admin and mod team.

Certainly within the smaller Comms this would be useful.

I totally agree, and I say that as someone who took some schadenfreude in prominent media liberals suddenly being faced with the realisation that all their self-deluding electoralist optimism was just that. It's entirely possible to see the sham of the American uniparty for exactly what it is and still feel shit or sad when the thing you know is likely to happen happens.

I just wanted to thank you for wading into this and giving a detailed and reasoned response. Even if I don't agree with every word, I appreciate them all and can see your point of view. The work you and some of the other mods here put in continues to blow me away. You and those mods are the best of Hexbear, which is why I usually don't weigh in on these editorial decisions.

Unfortunately, the behaviour and generally hostile and toxic responses of other mods around this issue have been a fucking embarrassment and have deeply hurt the argument for these changes or the idea they're being done in good faith. (I think they are, for the record, even if I don't entirely agree with all of it).

This appears to be a pattern with a couple of the mods who seem most aggressively for this decision and most against actually discussing it.

I just shrugged and moved on when it was clear I wasn't going to get a reasonable reply, but you're right that many of these mod replies aren't even close to being in good faith.

At this point it really feels like a couple of mods here are just flinging shit because the majority don't seem to agree with them and are annoyed at the disingenuous reasons given for this whole fuck up. It's pretty embarrassing to be honest.

My experiences have been similar. Effort-posting in a reply to a news mega comment tends to do a lot better than making a unique post. Although I've often done both to try and increase the visibility of other comms.

The unfortunate thing is that I feel like this whole saga has made me less likely to contribute longer, more detailed posts. There's a difference between spending time writing a longer post or reply because you feel like you have something to add that isn't highlighted often or might be useful, and some version of it being a kind of mandated fee to post because a handful of mods seem to want it the whole thing gone but aren't willing to just make that decision and stand by it.

Some of the mods here are great and continue being, but getting one word answers followed by dickish, oddly angry, and doomer-ish rants in response to genuine questions really sucks. It's obviously not a 1:1, but it makes me feel a little like 'if they can't be arsed, why should I put the effort in?'. I've got better / more entertaining things I could be doing.

Thanks for the input.

On your last point I suppose I just don't really see the dunk tank as people getting mad, perhaps because the content posted there is more likely to make me roll my eyes or have fun basking in the ridiculousness of the takes, than be legitimately angry at something some reactionary spewed out into the online space.

I definitely think there's a reasonable argument as to not focus our efforts on tearing apart mostly anonymous takes that no one would probably otherwise see (even if it can occassionally be fun).

That being said, I think focusing on bad faith arguments or frequent reactionary sentiments or narratives primarily from 'notable figures' (however we define that) doesn't really fit the way these things are often spread online. Increasingly this stuff is spread and reinforced through repetition by both bots and willing volunteers or just uncritical users online. Political think tanks, PR groups, propagandists of all stripes test this stuff online to see what sticks or gets taken up. Waiting for, or having to find a specific instance of, a politician or an Elon Musk or a well known Anglo op-ed writer feels oddly institutional and like putting the cart before the horse.

But perhaps I'm still missing something. Are there concerns about potential friendly fire against others on the left? An attempt to appear more welcoming to outsiders in general? Something else?

I rarely, if ever, comment on these kind of editorial or mod decisions. In part because I really appreciate the vast majority of what mods here volunteer to do and recognise the hard graft they put in just to keep this place going without it going off the rails. Partly because, as much as I'm very fond of this community and some of the things we've achieved - as well as it being an oasis in a sea of constant turned-up-to-11 reactionary shit both online and off - it is still just a website I enjoy contributing to or just reading. It's not my life or social space or vessel for my activism.

So while no one has to, I hope you'll indulge me in this rare instance I weigh in...

I think replacing the comm, if simply renaming it is tricky, is a good idea. That particular racist connotation isn't worth the (admittedly fitting) name, and plenty of users have suggested others. If for reasons of technical ease or federation gremlins it's better to delete or lock the old comm and replace it, sure, sounds good.

That being said, this odd split and potential intent change of the comms, complicated by vague and ill-defined rules (what is a public person online, who is notable, what is the threshold for influence etc?) seems like a pretty ill-conceived idea being messaged in an even more cack-handed way. Having read the entirety of this thread, that seems pretty clear by the general reaction that this is the common sentiment (even if I don't agree with all of the reasons posted).

Plenty of other people have made similar points rather well, but I think there's merit and value in having a simple space where people can post terrible takes, examples of disingenuous or reactionary narratives, or brainworms on full display. Ridicule can be a tool that's effective in talking with people and dismantling especially knee-jerk unthinking reactionary narratives. But I'd also argue that the ability to throw down an absurdly reactionary or unhinged take for ridicule and have comrades instinctively understand why it's worthy of such, is a kind of bonding and being seen that most people don't get in their every day lives. And that had value too.

The proposed names are also dreadful. Aside from the negative and potentially sexist connotations of 'gossip' as pointed out by others, that also sounds to me like a comm that's for inside baseball about Hexbear, not ridicule of 'notable figures'. Counterpropaganda is slightly better, but still seems to be pitched as essentially deciding to debate into the void. I feel like strong, simple counters to reactionary clichés often get posted in the comments of dunk tank posts, regardless of whether it's presented with an explanation or not. I also think that the creator of a post laying out exactly why it's bullshit predetermines why it is bullshit, and potentially discourages (explicitly or not) other takes on why these reactionary thoughts are nonsense. Many of the best, most succinct counterpoints I've seen and used from the dunk tank were because a user was looking at why the posted content was worthless or reactionary in a totally different way than me.

Mostly I'm just perplexed by what the motivation is behind these changes, even after reading the comments mods have taken the time to write in active response.Rather than continue to ramble, although I'm likely to have more to say, I suppose it might be more useful for me to ask some questions of the mods, devs, and anyone else who wants to weigh in...

• Is there an issue with the amount of moderation required and generated by these comms? Is the rule change or differently pitched comms because mods are spending too much time removing potentially reactionary posts that are too vague about what is the intended target of 'dunking' etc?

• Does the mod / dev team percieve an issue with the tone of the majority of posts in these comms? If so, what is it?

• Does any of this stem from concerns about ther 'seriousness' of the site or the amount of jokey / outwardly hostile that appear within the top posts, either locally or for visitors? If so, to what degree?

• What other reasons or concerns do the mods/devs/other users have about these comms beyond the need for a name change? There's been some passing mention of 'low effort' posts, but can you clarify what you mean or why such posts are a negative thing for the community?

I'll leave it there for now as I've already probably typed too much.

Just wanted to say thanks for the simple, clear timeline breakdown. I've been following this over the last couple of days as it (inevitably, when you give fash free reign) but even so having it clearly marked out in the thread is useful.

Damn. Spain really can't catch a break and the state response has been atrocious. Girona is already treated like an afterthought by government in that part of the world.

Oh, one hundred percent. Depending on their age, seeing their father finally get an appropriate reaction for that sort of behaviour might be shocking but more positive than the alternative. But there's no doubt the kid is a victim too, and for all the joy I see in the fash getting the appropriate response, the fact they were willing to try it in front of their kid is grim. The child will have to live with a racist, violent POS father who will almost certainly turn that rage on him at some point, and at a minumum will grow up in the shadow of the some of the most heinous racism, hate, and brainwashing just as background noise. And all of that is before the fact that he's a negligent enough parent to abandon his kind while he takes up weapons and tries to assault or kill peaceful strangers.

That's a little better, but seems like a weird UI oversight.

They're not even bothering with that here in the UK from what I've seen. To write or believe the kind of coverage our media is putting out you'd have to have:

• Not followed any news or discussion about Israel or the reaction to protests in the last year.
• Have no access to social media whatsoever, which it's been all over since they they started doing this shit the day before the game.
• Never have experienced being around Israeli tourists ever.
• Know aboslutely nothing about international football and have actively avoided news following the Champions League all summer.
• Not even watched the Euros earlier this year and seen the behaviour of Israel fans.

Any one of these things would clue you into the fact that this Israeli fash-hooligan innocence narrative isn't just cynical, but absolutely absurd on the face of it.

So I couldn't agree more. At best people will accurately look at the media and just go, 'lying to our faces and taking us for idiots as usual, especially about Israel lately' and more dangerously, potentially they'll go 'well the media must be controlled by Jews because why else would they shill such an obvious and insulting lie'. Even if you're in legacy media I suspect neither of these outcomes would be good for you, never mind potentially fuelling actual antisemitism.

I was just about to say, that's definitely the one. He's definitely Matan Ahlfield as all his business and LinkedIn profiles went dark afterwards. And whilst it's not really important except to demonstrate that this is absolutely a 1% scumbag (amongst other things) getting his arse handed to him, that car he left his kid in to attack peaceful protestors with a weapon cost anywhere between $200-300k.

Yeah, are they genuinely not already doing this kind of stuff already? My Xiaomi does that as well as adaptive charging based on my usage etc.

It's from last year, but the album "Altutude" by Marty Stuart & His Fabulous Superlatives is still my go to upbeat, uplifting record. A lifetime legend of country music doing an unapologetically fun, slightly psychadelic nod to not just The Byrds, but British 60s pop, and Mowtown. It's lively, funny, catchy, and even what could be more melancholy songs have a strong vibe of optimism - Space is a chill guitar lick about being overwhelmed by society, but finding peace in nature, A Friend Of Mine is all about solidarity from the the universality of shit going wrong, Sitting Alone is about feeling disconnected but it being a blissful experience that allows you to enjoy the simple things, and so on.

I don't pretend to know the intricacies of higher education in the states, but getting capitalist money out of things like science journals would be hugely beneficially everywhere.