Debunking NATO propaganda and consent manufacturing means massively massively more than your personal relationships and comfort. I don't want to hear how hard it is to be called a 'shill for Putin'. People should have already been calling you a shill for Assad, for Kim Jong Un, for Xi, for Castro or you have been fucking NEGLIGENT AS LEFTISTS. If you're in the imperial core your primary fucking duty is to anti imperialism. Clearly a lot of you haven't been doing this. Now there are possible nuclear consequences and I see a great deal of you still too fucking chicken shit to stick their necks out for people living under the thumbs of America and NATO. Investigate the situation thoroughly and have an informed, consistent take based in Marxism and historical materialism and then REPEAT IT LOUDLY AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND LET IT BE KNOWN THAT THE WORKERS OF THE WORLD DO NOT STAND FOR THIS. This is supposed to be a board of principled communists, act like it.
Read Combat Liberalism
All imperialism should be denounced.
Learn what leftism and communism means before going on a rant next time.
Why is every single socialist and anti-imperialist nation on Earth siding with Russia explicitly or implicitly? Cuba is imperialist? DPRK is imperialist? Nicaragua is imperialist? Come on
Russia may be imperialist in general, but in this case they are acting in defense against imperialism - as they did in Syria
Yeah, I'm not fucking ride or die for Russia but they're semi correct here. CRITICAL SUPPORT IS A CONCEPT
Houthi, Iran, Syria, Palestine are all big pro-Russia as well. This should give you a clue westerners
Just because these non-imperialist countries and actors side with Russia (because of Western-bloc aggression against them) does not mean that Russia itself is non-imperialist, or that it can't actively engage in Imperialism in other places
Why would DPRK back an imperialist war? When have they ever once backed imperialism? Ever? Do you think you know the mindset and context of being besieged by NATO better than them? Russia and DPRK understand the geopolitical reality better than any western chauvinist in their bubble
Because a besieged nation needs international allies / trade-partners. They need to align themselves with a world-power to protect their economic and military security. When the Soviet-Union existed they could ally themselves with an openly anti-imperialist power.
The Soviet-Union has been replaced by an imperialist-capitalist nation tough. So because the west is actively vying for their destruction while support South Korea, and Russia is willing to opportunistically support them to combat western expansion.That means that it is a neccessity for the DPRK to align themselves with the clearly imperialist Russia
Blah blah blah find me one other example in all of human history of the DPRK supporting a single imperialist action.
Once you do, I will admit defeat to you. If you cannot, you must do more research on this subject and self crit. Because DPRK knows imperialism better than you do.
DPRK has close and brotherly ties with the superpower China, what are you even talking about
The DPRK condemned the Vietnamese counter-invasion of Cambodia, even after the Khmer Rogue had invaded Vietnam first and massacred thousands of Vietnamese civilians, and supported the Chinese invasion of Vietnam. They didn’t really have a choice in either of those, or backing Russia now, because Juche self reliance or not, if China ever turned hostile the DPRK’s position would become utterly untenable.
DPRK backed Vietnam and the USSR. China’s shameful actions and pathetic alliance with the Khmer Rouge is a painful sticking point in DPRK-China relations to this day.
https://thediplomat.com/2017/09/war-of-the-dragons-why-north-korea-does-not-trust-china/
Huh, what I read said otherwise.
Edit: yeah, our sources don’t contradict, mine says they supported it at the time, yours says it was a shocking realisation to DPRK leadership that the PRC so brutally turned on a close ally over so little, and it’s made them more cautious going forwards. What you linked never says the DPRK didn’t issue a statement against Vietnam, or that they publically condemned the PRCs invasion while it was ongoing.
If anything the combination of the two is evidence that DPRK leadership does engage in realpolitik, and has before issued statements that don't reflect their true beliefs. It would be honestly irresponsible of them not to.
Yeah you are right, I got too cocky. I shall eat crow. They did a bit of politicking back and forth during the sino-Soviet split trying to maintain the least revisionist allies, but there’s no real winner during the split. It just sucked and both sides did cringe things.
Seems like DPRK backed the USSR to the hilt until Stalin died, then swapped to Mao when Kruschev got in, then swapped to Brezhnev when Deng got in.
Late Mao and Deng did some really terrible foreign policy during the time that Kruschev was being revisionist. It’s lose-lose.
Yeah, an China isn't as strong or powerful as the entire Western bloc, so to combat western hegemony AES states need to ally themselves with non-western capitalist/imperialist states like Russia, wich while imperialist still need to oppose Western imperialism.
And right here you have an example of the DPRK giving nominal support to an imperialist power doing an imperialist action, tough i doubt they're actually materially supporting it
You can’t use this as your example that’s circular. Come on lib I ain’t got all day
Not only circular but it defeats their own argument.
Adress my first point then.
I don't need to provide an example of the DPRK tacitly supporting non-western imperialism because it's not relevant and doesn't actually prove anything.
No shut the fuck up and tell me when DPRK was wrong on foreign policy. I will be repeating this until you give an answer. It’s a heuristic with a 100% success rate, so if you are going against it you need to make a stronger case than typical boring chauvinist trot shit
lmfao get their chauvinist ass
:juche-rose:
And I'm willing to opportunistically support Russia to prevent the possibility of thermonuclear war.
Read Lenin
Where does Lenin write about Nuclear war LMAO
Where is Russia exporting Capital to Ukraine? Where are they extracting Surplus Value? All I see is NATO weaponry, Nazis, TFSA, Belarusian opposition and western “volunteers” being military pummeled
He writes extensively about the concept of critical support and about what actual imperialism is in a book called Imperialism the Highest Stage of Capitalism.
Yeah bit that's not the subject right now. They aren't doing an imperialism on Ukraine.
They're invading a sovereign country to prevent it from leaving their sphere of influence and joining the USA's sphere of influence. It's a purely imperialist conflict.
It’s not sovereign it’s a NATO putsche and they were building UK airbases (NATO)
You are being a chauvinist westerner and NATO apologist
It's easy to paint someone as bloodthirsty when you don't read the terms of surrender. Neutrality is seriously not a huge ask
Ukrainians aren’t fighting to defend their sovereignty and nation, they are fighting to defend their 8-year old NATO backed Nazi regime. I hope they surrender as soon as possible to minimize loss of life
Fully agree. I guess wanting to minimize casualties is imperialism now
I like China’s position, they are playing the good cop. They can negotiate peace, rebuild Ukraine and Russia, drag both away from the west and create a new multipolar world along with Africa, South America and the Middle East. I hope a mutually beneficial peace can be brokered soon and Russia can achieve its security objectives while Ukraine can remain territorially sovereign, albeit without Crimea or Donbas.
I'm maybe not seeing it cause I'm in canada but I would like to hope that non aligned nations will see how NATO absolutely used Ukraine for its own ends and then threw its people under the tank treads is being noticed.
Brazil, Saudi Arabia, India. These 3 are the ones up in the air right now. They have expressed distaste, but will not sanction in any way. India is a very complex place, I will say there is much hope there and much reactionary misery and it’s hard to judge where they are going to fall between Russia/China vs. EU/Anglo-American Empire.
Brazil too, even with the disgusting pig Bolsonaro in power they are remaining relatively neutral. If Lula gets in then that’s an easy win for our side and will steer Brazil towards Russia/China.
Saudi Arabia is totally gonna go with the west let’s not kid ourselves. Surprised with how neutral Israel and Saudi Arabia have acted. Thought they would both go into the west camp immediately?
I've got a co-worker from India that I've got a good rapport with. His take was pretty much the same as ours minus communism. It was just nice to hear someone IRL that wasn't all in on Russia is a Bond Villain. What I meant was more how non aligned nations would trust or work with nato down the line after all this.
I’m not just talking alignment in this conflict. I think we are seeing the birth of a new multipolar world order. Russia and China are both dumping USD and Russia is re-organizing its economy into warmode. I think for a while nations are going to feel immense pressure to pick sides, at least US will push that
Capitalist vs capitalist cold war. Yeah that seems about right for our current times
More like Imperialist vs. Anti-imperialist Cold War with Russia happening to be the primary bulwark due to its position next to Europe. Poor Russia. They have to always be the ones to defend against the demons from the west. They always pay so high a price. I’m glad they picked the right side despite being capitalists.
I guess capitalist competition is better than monopoly. A new Cold War would give me fomo for the first one where my support didn't have as many asterisks
Yah the anti-fascist conference Russia is holding where they invited all their worst reactionary allies + China was major wtf
Why couldn’t they have invited all their based socialist allies like DPRK, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, Cuba, etc?
Cause Russia still isn't Good Guy country, they just happen to be more correct here.
How can it become Good Guy country, any progressive revolution will surely be coopted by western capital. Reforms during wartime can be quick and massive in scale. It’s theoretically possible Russia could become some type of war state capitalism that resembles the PRC.
Don’t think Putin is the one to do it. Maybe they can be a communist movement for his successor soon. I dunno.
I agree. Was just stating the here and now of it.
Thanks for doing replies I would make for me.
Nowhere did i support NATO aggression or expansion, so i don't know why you accused me of that.
You're doing the exact same thing as Westerners who accuse anybody who is anti-NATO of being "putinists"
Besides, just because the west does imperialism in Ukraine doesn't mean that it's not Imperialism when Russia does the same thing.
Jesus Christ shut the fuck up Liberal
:pigpoop:
You are going to be here whining when “imperialist” DPRK reunites with the South and expels the colonialists. You are going to be whining about “imperialist” China when they reclaim Taipei. You will be whining about “imperialist” Palestine and their allies when they destroy Israel. You are going to be whining about “imperialist” Cuba when they retake Guantanamo.
Fighting NATO outposts is not the same as imperialism.
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“Legitimate territory that was stolen” who is the irredentist nationalist now?
The reason why fighting imperialism is good isn’t to restore your sacred lands dipshit. It’s to DESTROY THE EMPIRE. Ukraine is being turned into a fortified base of the empire. Simple as.
Did you just completely flip the argument you where makimg because i agreed with you that AES states taking former terrirtory isn't imperialism and didn't fit your made up strawman?
Besides imperialist nations can, and have many times in history destroyed empire before. They have simply replaced it with another one, wich is 100% Russias intention in this conflict.
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Saying it's Russians goal seems a bit ambitious. I think they just want the disputed territory and Ukraine to be neutral and fuck off. NATO is showing its whole association to the rest of the world which works for that idea but it's also fanning the flames of NATO support within NATO countries. I doubt that's being seen as a net positive for Putin but that's also kind of a thing there. If he were acting totally based on being an evil oligarch then how does he benefit financially or materially in any personal or national way from this increase in tension? It was probably seen as necessary but risky cause it is.
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It's high risk high reward and it was a forced hand as well. Only time will tell
No Putin doesn’t give a fuck about that. Dude just doesn’t want American nukes in the country next to him.
Yes, because Russia isn't doing this to restore full democracy and sovereignty to Ukraine, but simply to bring them under their influence. Russia only opposes NATO because it stands in the way of it's own imperial project. Not out of an ideological opposition to al imperialist actions.
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Holy fuck the :brainworms: on this one. They don’t want a hostile country to put nukes at their front door. Imagine the response if Mexico entered into a military alliance with China and then the Chinese military put missiles right on the Texan border lol
Agreed.
Or like, the USSR put missiles on Cuba. Luckily these things are mere thought experiments :thinkin-lenin:
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That isn't the only reason Russia opposes nato. Don't be naive.
No I have always been consistent. Military resistance against the expansion of the imperialist hegemony is anti-imperialist and based. Always. In all cases. Whether that’s seizing back land they stole or invading to destroy their forward positions or stopping a coup (or reversing one).
No you’re just a liberal lol
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Good and correct
As an internationalist I will attack every imperialist wherever I found them.
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I'm not talking of physical attacks.
Attack as in engage in debate.
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:expert-shapiro:
Okay, so what should Russia have done in this situation? What effect does such criticism have in NATO countries where most people here live? What good does denouncing an imperialism that isn't currently being done matter at this time? How does that help the left and what would be the consequences. Don't be a moralist
You wouldn't accept any answer except war with Ukraine.
There is no use in talking to you.
Soooo...what should have Russia done instead? Also invading acountry doesn't equal imperialism. Read Lenin. It's a neighboring country that has been constantly courting international American/nato interests and doing ethnic cleansing in regions that voted in favor of independence several times. Russia has yet to show any aim to occupy Ukraine permanently or to use them for cheap foreign labor. Doing a war doesn't make you an imperialist. You could call Putim that for other reasons but not this specific one.
Also I don't support war in Ukraine which is why they should surrender and end the bloodshed cause that's the only way its not gonna just get worse.
Fucking thank you.
tfw you have internalized imperialism so hard that any military actions by any state at all is hard-locked to “imperialism”.
Also what happens when you don’t bother reading what imperialism is lol
Maybe try not calling everyone who disagrees with you a liberal before they even speak. People might take you more seriously.
There have been ~20k deaths in Ukraine since the start of the civil war. Almost all of them could have been avoided if Russia had not taken Crimea.
Taking over a sovereign country because Russia wants warm water ports and a route for natural gas lines makes them imperialist. Anyone arguing differently is not arguing in good faith.
Ukraine should never surrender to Putin's Russia. They would become a vassal state like Belorussia.
The deaths happened as part of resistance to Maidan, which preceded Crimea annexation by a full year. The NATO-backed coup started the civil war, not Russia. You need to be more educated on the context before you speak with such derisive authority
Oh my god the amount of queer people, leftists, and minorities who have been murdered by Ukrainian fascists… this is a gross fucking take.
The people’s republics have a right to self determination. I’m really surprised there’s not more Anarchists raising hell about that.
Want to show some numbers on those deaths? Russians have killed 2000 Ukrainian civilians in less than a week.
Ukraine has a right to self determination as well.
I'm really worried about how delusional some leftists are about how brutal the Russians will be to the LGBT community once they take power. There are a lot more neo-nazis in Russia than Ukraine.
Take a look at the polling done by the UN in the years leading up to the annexation.
Nearly 70% of Crimeans wanted to be a part of Russia.
:very-intelligent: Clearly the answer is to let the American funded fascists murder everyone who wants that and throw their bodies in mass graves.
ANSWER MY DIRECT QUESTION. WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST RUSSIA SHOULD HAVE DONE?
The real answer is that Russia should have quietly submitted as coups keep happening all around them, slowly suffocating them
No, no, I want to hear the answer from the guy who was owning me so hard until I pressed the question.
Coward
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We want the war to end. We want NATO to stay the fuck away and for Ukraine to surrender and minimize loss of life. We want the 1 million people of Donbas and the 13 million Russian speaking Ukrainians to know peace instead of terror and shelling for 8 years.
It’s the NATO/UKR supporters that are pushing martyrdom, false hope, suicidal guerrilla tactics, insurgency, terror. They are bringing in ISIS from Turkey to fight on their behalf, they released all the prisoners and they have Nazi battalions. These people are the bloody warmongers and they are the ones that created this entire situation. They are preventing evacuations of civilians to use them as shields.
You have been warned
The fuck you lost me with the ending
See my other response, I meant it more generally and rhetorically as foreboding what is to come (Insurgency, AZOV+ISIS combo, lots of civilian deaths, many killed by Ukrainians themselves). Also I’m drunk
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The warning is rhetorical and general, not directed at you or someone specific. I just mean that you will see in the upcoming months great terrors unleashed if the Ukrainian government doesn’t come to its senses. There’s no going back now and only one way out of this, and that’s decisive Russian victory and for Putin’s regime to remain intact until this operation is complete at the very least. NATO is going to try and push a color revolution.
https://i.imgur.com/5oghF71.jpg
This is TFSA. If you know anything about the Syrian Civil War, this is Turkish-backed Daesh. ISIS. Can’t wait to see if they get along with Nazis.
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The war was started 8 years ago by NATO, Russia is just trying to finish it.
(Not the person you responded to.)
TBH IMO Russia should've done nothing. Fuck nation-states. Though, of course, working-class Russians could've gone as individuals and affinity groups and lent their own muscle, as leftists have done to good effect in places like Revolutionary Catalonia and Syria.
Who else should've done something is leftists in U.S. and other NATO countries, and I'm pretty pissed at them/us for not coming out and joining some of us who were protesting the jingoism so we could build to the point where we could do more than protest. (Fucking back-to-brunchers!)
That kind of opposition—and solidarity with Ukrainian leftists—is what can do things like back NATO off without the war, disarm the neo-Nazis, and allow people in Ukraine to defend themselves and start to recover (including building autonomy for the communities who want it).
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Reason: sectarianism
I'm not sure what this reply said, but I'd ask you to look at the other comments I've made in this thread, and realize that I'm taking your position far more than that of the people you were arguing with. I know damned well who is at the historic heart of this mess (U.S./NATO). I just don't appreciate nation-states acting like they are the solution, and I'd hope that people understand at least that Russia is an explicitly capitalist nation-state and agree to some extent at least in this circumstance that what it's doing is in the interests of its capitalist puppet masters and not for any "altruistic" reasons.
Nothing actually got removed. I worte that myself. I'm just like...not an anarchist but also don't really have anything against what you're saying aside from that
👍
People fall for my self mods a lot. Reasons are only ever posted in the mod log and they're usually following the actual removed post instead of the removed by mod thing. I do leave hints
The majority of the deaths are on the donbass and republics region and them breaking off and trying to be pro russian independant was concurrent with Russia taking Crimea or even earlier. The post 2014 coup and far right dominated Ukrainian military would be shelling those regions into submission and be enacting ethnic supression efforts no matter what Russia did in Crimea. Look at any map taken before the coup. Thos regions supported the Russian couped president at 80%+ and the ideological ,geopolitical and historical viewpointsof the western ukraine dominated post 2014 order and those regions are and would only have been solved within Ukraine by the same civil war conflicts we so
Answer the question. They tried diplomatic routes. They were ignored in the UN for 8 years, their ceasefires not upheld at all.
All imperialism must be denounced, but even in an interimperialist war not all sides must be equaly focused on or attacked depending on the historical and geopolitical context, world unipolarity and most of all depending on what country the revolutionary left doing the analysis is located and exists in and what mainstream narratives and propaganda it finds around it and has to combat