yup, struggle session time

edit: no one is right, everyone is wrong :^)

edit 2: this post is actually dedicated to Amy Goodman, please stop trying to sound cool grandma

  • PzkM [he/him]
    3·
    4 years ago

    I am Spanish. If you want to use gender-neutral term for Latin people, use Latin. Latinx is ridiculous, "Latine" is redundant because of how words are pronounced. The entire language is gendered, it would already be an epic quest to make it gender-neutral, let alone make it inclusive for non-binary people. You may as well invent a new language at that point.

    • ComradeAndy [he/him]
      2·
      4 years ago

      You may as well invent a new language at that point.

      Alright new language, spanish, but gender inclusive

      • PzkM [he/him]
        3·
        4 years ago

        Yes, you understand that it would require changing every noun, pronoun, adjective, and article in the language. This is what the language being neutral, in the sense that English is neutral, would require. Might as well make up a new language if you're going to modify to that extent.

        • ComradeAndy [he/him]
          1·
          4 years ago

          Like, you do know that languages are fake shit. Right?

          Esto es lo mismo que decir "no puedes decir googlear" o palabras asi "inventadas" porque no están en la RAE.

          • PzkM [he/him]
            1·
            4 years ago

            Languages are real, they are really used by billions of people. Languages have broadly adhered-to grammatical rules so that mutual intelligibility is possible. Languages are arbitrary, but that doesn't mean that reform is something easy or that will be broadly adopted. For example, the RAE attempts to enforce arbitrary language rules of its own and isn't very successful; that might be an indication of how unfeasible it might be to transform the language into a neutral one. It would be easier for everyone to use an auxiliary language like English, which is already the global lingua franca.

            • ComradeAndy [he/him]
              3·
              4 years ago

              ngl if the solution to "Spanish is not gender inclusive" is "We should actually stop using the language of our countries altogether" you are really missing the mark.

              All languages are made up lol, they were all constructed by people, they can be modified by people.

        • gay [any]
          1·
          4 years ago

          This is what the language being neutral, in the sense that English is neutral, would require.

          Good thing we don't want that then.

          • PzkM [he/him]
            1·
            4 years ago

            Are you sure that's what you don't want? I am certain I have seen people propose making the entire language neutral. This thread is about one word specifically, but the logical progression is clear.

            • gay [any]
              ·
              4 years ago

              Sí. La idea de que vamos a sacarles las terminaciones a todas las palabras y sustituirlas por x o e es una exageración. Si esa es la idea que se percibe, es un error de les que utilizan el lenguaje inclusivo. Tal vez mejor comunicación es necesaria.

              Pero te pido que escuches cuando una persona usa lenguaje inclusivo. Las palabras que cambia son solo aquellas que son esplícitamente masculinas y refieren a grupos de personas de más de un género o a una persona individual cuyo género es deconocido (o ni masculino ni femenino).

              El género gramatical es otra cosa. Querer quitarlo sería como querer quitar el número de las palabras: posible, pero tan difícil que arruinaría nuestra causa. Nos importa la inclusividad de todos los géneros, solo les humanes tienen género, solo las palabras que refieran a personas humanas deberán ser modificadas.

              Si hay un grupo de personas que de verdad son todos varones, el plural masculino queda intacto.

              Edit: Sé sincero... ¿es difícil entender lo que escribí? ¿Estoy arruinando el lenguaje? ¿Cómo? Si me entendiste perfectamente.

              • BenkB [he/him]
                ·
                4 years ago

                Nah completamente de acuerdo. Persona por ejemplo es femenino

                • gay [any]
                  ·
                  4 years ago

                  Humanos is the masculine form. Humanas is the feminine form. I'm speaking about humanos and humanas. I should use humanes.

                  You probably meant personas. That's because the word doesn't have a masculine form. The word doesn't change gramatical gender when refering to people of different genders.

                    • gay [any]
                      ·
                      4 years ago

                      Why? I'm confident in my language skills and have no problem explaining basic grammar. I have also given lenguaje inclusivo a lot of thought, I know how I deal with it. You said you were being honest, so no need to interpret that comment as a lazy gotcha.

                        • gay [any]
                          ·
                          4 years ago

                          because people will call you irregulares

                          Which people.

                          Edit: What's funny is that you're closer to the only valid criticism against this type of gender inclusive language than with any of the other dumb shit you have said. The use of gender inclusive language is classist, it requires the person to know enough grammar to make the appropropriate changes to their speech. Why don't verbs change? How do I know that adverbs don't change? Why is "Todes somes iguales" wrong? Not everyone does, not even the majority. The only way to move forward is to understand the reason it's proposed, and adapt it to your abilities. I'm not gonna call an LGBT ally a transphobe just because they don't understand how LI works. As long as they're engaging in good faith.