yup, struggle session time
edit: no one is right, everyone is wrong :^)
edit 2: this post is actually dedicated to Amy Goodman, please stop trying to sound cool grandma
No, I won't. As a non binary language and linguistics student who is also Latine.
I prefer to use Latine, because it makes the most sense within the language and phonetically. I can get why the "x" is odd. I'll use it when writing sometimes if I'm being lazy but never in speech. The whole discourse about how it's supposedly some US imposition on us is revisionist nonsense. There have always, always been nonbinary people in Latin America.
Of course people haven't heard of it. Of course if you poll people they will lean conservative. A LOT of Latine culture is plagued by machismo and catholicism. We are incredibly conservative. That there is division in the community doesn't mean you should default to siding with the overwhelmingly conservative sidebecause they're louder and larger in numbers. Let us figure out our own shit, we're on that, but stop acting like the addition of a gender neutral alternative is some perversion of the language because it supposedly came from the US. What you are doing is repeating Latin American conservative talking points (replace "the US" with "the devil") and are silencing people that should be your allies. You should give a shit about us.
Spanish is an imposed, colonialist language anyway. Our history is colonialism. We adapt and we change our language to serve us better because that's the entire point of language. Language is meant to be flexible and exists so we can express ourselves. I can't express myself in a language that denies my existence, so I change it. It's 100% fine and the RAE can kiss my ass.
All I gotta say is thank god the two languages I speak, German and Russian, are not widely spoken in the US so our attempts at doing gender inclusivity aren't met with American struggle sessions about imposing American values on the world. For the record, in Austria the usage of the Binnen I is exceedingly common in both leftist circles and is becoming pretty common in wider society too. With the Binnen I, instead of writing "students (m) and students (f)" as "Studenten und Studentinnen", you write StudentInnen. People also often include non-binary people by using a "gap", writing Student_innen or Student*innen. It's been a thing since the 1980s, gradually increasing in popularity.
I don't speak Spanish and am not part of the community so obviously I'll defer to others about latinx vs latine. No dog in that fight. I just wanted to express solidarity because all the Anglos in the thread talking about the imposition of English language norms, like the rest of us can't come to the idea that using gender neutral language is beneficial to women and queer people ourselves, is infuriating.
EDIT: Oh no oh no, fucking Anglos making the city write RadfahrerInnen (cyclist (m/f)) on a sign , poor us!!!
Ahhh, German checking in to get you the struggle session you deserve, I have problems talking about non-binary people in German when they're not there or don't speak German. Obviously when they're available one could always just ask them, but what pronouns would one use for people who use they/them pronouns? "Es" - "It" seems pretty dehumanising. Or how would one refer to a non-binary doctor? Arzt and Ärztin are both heavily gendered, and there is not really a neutral term.
I've been following the discussions and tbh I don't think there's a consensus yet. Same with non-binary people in Russian - a non-binary person I follow on Twitter uses он/а [s/he], I've seen someone else use оно [it], which yes comes across as dehumanising to me as well but if that's what they prefer I can't yell NO YOU CAN'T!! at them. I think some people just continue using he/she, or prefer people to switch within a conversation. I don't really wanna do a struggle session about it because I'm not non-binary lmao, again I'll just defer to them. I'm sure as acceptance spreads, one form will win out eventually, as it always is with language.
My point is simply that these conversations are taking place in non-Anglo communities - it's not like every non-binary person has given up on German/Russian and decided that being non-binary is an Anglo imposition.
I've seen struggle sessions that we shouldn't use it to refer to plants/animals as they have rights or whatever, and so there should be another separate new pronoun for non-human flora and fauna
Animate/inanimate noun class distinctions aren't unheard of in language, but I don't think they'll manage that one haha. Afaik flora typically fall on the inanimate side too. Maybe if they advocate for it as part of a push for veganism, anti climate change, animal rights.
It still wouldn't be the weirdest thing in the history of English pronouns. I'll never be over English borrowing they/them from the Norse. It's extremely uncommon for languages to borrow function words (pronouns, prepositions, etc), it's very interesting that they/them stuck.
The natural solution along these lines would be Ärztx, right?
The natural solution is Ärzt_in :) Can't diss the usage of x when some of us are putting in underscores
But you can't even pronounce that. You already have that in Spanish since before I was even born
Well you still have the problem which is that it implies you can only be an Ärzt or an Ärztin. So it's inappropriate for enbys. Example
No? You don't pronounce Ärztin (f) with a glottal stop. So Ärzt_in (nb) with a glottal stop differentiates it and makes it non-binary. I'm not saying this is the most perfect solution that everyone should stick to, but it is a possible solution.
Sure it is, it's made from bits from the two gender terminations, so if you can make that case in Spanish you can make that case in German.
So? Every community reaches their own decisions regarding what they consider acceptable in their own language. German has three grammatical genders (male/female/neuter), in contrast to Spanish, so the starting point is different anyway. Kinyarwandans have 16 different grammatical genders/noun classes, I'm sure they could also make lots of different arguments about our struggles but that's neither here nor there.
Every community reaches their own decisions regarding what they consider acceptable in their own language.
I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.
German has three grammatical genders (male/female/neuter), in contrast to Spanish, so the starting point is different anyway.
How?
Kinyarwandans have 16 different grammatical genders/noun classes, I’m sure they could also make lots of different arguments about our struggles but that’s neither here nor there.
How?
Every community decides on their own how they'd like to be gender neutral. What works for German may not work for Spanish, what works for Spanish may not work for German. My point is that "you can make that case for Spanish" is irrelevant for German, and vice versa. "Ärzt_in" is what the German speaking community is tending towards finding acceptable.
Re neuter making a difference (imo): it's because then not only are you trying to include enbies, you're very consciously trying to avoid making enbies neuter, as that's typically associated with inanimate objects. It's "der Arzt", "die Ärztin", but you probably don't want it to be "das Arzt[nb-suffix]". So you start playing around with gaps, male-female combos, etc. What's the determiner situation in Spanish? Maybe I'm wrong and you have the same problem.
hispanic is gender neutral already
Stahp, that is not a synonym for Latine. Won't anybody think of the Brazilians.
i just learned that alot of your founding fathers literally would do slave raids
I'm hispanicker than you, shut up.
Spanish is an imposed, colonialist language anyway.
Found the American Hispanic
It is, though? Like do you think the Tainos and the Caribs were speaking Spanish?
Do you think the Cherokees were speaking English? No, but if you suggested this idea to an American it would not resonate with them.
We make shit up in English all the time, though. English is more gender neutral than English. You just took the already gender neutral pronoun they and made it apply more broadly. Spanish is literally just male and female with a default male that even a lot of cis women have been rightfully critiquing for years.
The comment was more directed at the bit I quoted. Can you even imagine people in America trying to convince regular folks of anything by saying English is a colonial language imposed on them by the dastardly Brits
we're not trying to create a framing for a propaganda campaign here, just speaking facts between comrades who should understand that pointing out Spanish is a colonial language is a simple historical fact
Sure, like English is, but this doesn't mean anything to Americans. It says something to American Hispanics because they're a minority from the US that often isn't that connected to the original culture and sees the issue through the lens of being a racial minority.
I don't even know what to make of this comment, what are you even arguing here? My point is that there is nothing about saying Spanish is a colonial language that is exclusive to Latinos in the diaspora
My point is that there is nothing about saying Spanish is a colonial language that is exclusive to Latinos in the diaspora
Removed from context maybe, but in the context of that comment this is exactly what I'm arguing and I expect anyone from Latam to have my back on this.
This simply isn't true, people study and discuss settler-colonial dynamics in Latin America as well.
Spanish settlers came and conquered the natives and created an entire political and ideological apparatus to justify their exploitation of them. Part of this was making other languages other than Spanish taboo and subject to punishment, legal or otherwise. This culture and ideology has not dissapeared in these countries and the erasure of a colonial past is part of that.
Roman settlers came and conquered the Gauls and created an entire political and ideological apparatus to justify their exploitation of them. Part of this was making other languages other than Latin taboo and subject to punishment, legal or otherwise. This culture and ideology has not dissapeared in these countries and the erasure of a colonial past is part of that.
All of this is true, but try to tell a French person this. See if this makes them not identify with the French language
I don't get what your problem with what I was saying was then. It's definitely true that this argument that you shouldn't identify with Spanish because it was "imposed to you" and it's not your real culture or whatever only has any currency with the American Hispanics.
Any language is not sacred. The underlying assumption that makes the argument work is that colonization means it's not our "real" culture. The argument makes no sense without it
The argument is that it is just one language among many and not a particularly privileged or special language that needs "preserving."
Gender neutral language in Spanish works completely different from gender neutral language in English. It's proposed to be used for words with gramatical gender (pronouns, nouns, adjectives and articles) when and only when we're talking about humans. English doesn't have gramatical gender, it doesn't change the adjective if it's feminine or masculine, English has a gender neutral third person pronoun, the articles don't have gramatical gender.
If we wanted to adhere to English gender neutral language we would get rid of gramatical gender entirely. "La mesa alta, el pelo suelto" aren't meant to be changed for "le mese alte, le pelo suelte".
"Los (male plural, human) chicos(male plural, human) quieren jugar a la(feminine singular, non human) pelota(feminine singular, non human)" would be changed to "Les(neutral plural) chiques(neutral plural) quieren jugar a la(feminine singular, non human) pelota(feminine singular, non human)".
Want English gender neutrality? Here: "Les chiques quieren jugar a le pelote".
Edit: Cursed English conjugation added
Les chiques quiero to jugar a le pelote.
Yes there is vosotras. Ustedes, on the other hand, only has that gender neutral form.
And to be spicy, Spanish people say vosotres as well .
i meant like os instead of los…
That makes no sense. "Os" is used for the direct object in the second plural person. Give me an example of a phrase using that. Here, use this: "Los trabajadores no tienen nada que perder, salvo sus cadenas." And in singular form.
the fuck is vosotres
Lenguaje inclusivo ;)
"Vosotres sois mis mejores amigues, por eso os quiero recordar que contáis conmigo para todo."
I'm gonna have to ask you to rephrase what you just said because I don't understand it.
Yeah I see where you're coming from. I've had this argument many times and I suppose that the idea I meant to express was that Spanish colonists brought both their language and their ideas of masculinity and femininity and imposed them on people. But there isn't as much arguing over the sanctity of the English language.
Do you guys really think the Brits oppressed you by making you speak English?
As a Colombian. Latinx is fine.
The x has been used in spanish to denote gender neutral language, but also the e. So both Latinx and latine are actually fine. Hell even Latin@, although the @ has lost use in spanish because it is rather binary normative.
Why? Because latino is a masculine gendered word in spanish, just as latina is.
In other words, shut up about stuff you dont understand lol.
Good to know only US Hispanics are dealing with this issue and that they're a socioeconomical monolith, very cool.
That you educate yourself, this is something I personally have seen being discussed and done by feminist and progressive groups in my own country.
It's different when it comes to the country since it's, you know, a country. But if you want to call it that way to own the "woke" queers and people that don't fit the forced binaries in Latin America because you're a Smart, Good Leftist, go ahead.
Ignorante termina en e, así que no es necesario usar el @, x o e. Pero no hay problema lo cambio para tí, pendejx ;)
I identify as Attack Helicopter, did you just assume my gender. Accross all languages, one joke.
"If you make a joke about woke discourse you basically hate trans people"
"If I make a joke about how ridiculous it's that gender neutral people try to be included in a non-gender neutral language, I get one step closer to True Leftism"
It’s funny cus they think they’re a Cool, Irreverent Leftist, who doesn’t fall for liberal shit. Just conservative shit.
I don't actually care that much. I'll use whatever language makes people most comfortable. But insisting on humorless discourse on an online forum is a bit much
You don't need to make jokes out of every issue, especially if you don't care enough to be sensitive about it.
Progressive Women-Queer-Nb Latinxs exist in real life, pendejx.
"In order to make a joke about something, you must be sensitive to the topic. But if you are sensitive to something, you would never joke about it."
The point I guess is to never make a joke. This is an online message board built around shit posting. I don't know what you expect. This is not a serious real life forum.
If you're going to be an unfunny asshole about it, yeah, don't make a joke.
The point I guess is to never make a joke. This is an online message board built around shit posting. I don’t know what you expect. This is not a serious real life forum.
Show
The joke is that it’s funny that you think you’re a Cool, Irreverent Leftist, who doesn’t fall for liberal shit. Just conservative shit.
"MY GENDER IS ATTACK HELICOPTER, MY PRONOUNS ARE XIR AND XER, I AM DEFENDING MY INNOCENT LANGUAGE OF ESS-JAY-DUBYA CORRUPTION"
Yeah it is. People mock the use of e/x in that exact way all the time. "It's ridiculous, look at me using it wrong on purpose": Chicxs, mx fux x mx casx y prendx mx computadorx....
In your argument, any exaggeration of a concept is the same joke then
No? It's all of this together that makes it the same joke:
*Méxicx
*ignorantx
pendejx
You finally got it right
*retrógradx
That is not mocking "woke discourse" that is mocking gender neutral language as a concept.
The first was an actual joke. The others were me intentionally being an asshole by making the same joke.
It's funny cus they think they're a Cool, Irreverent Leftist, who doesn't fall for liberal shit. Just conservative shit.
The misunderstanding seems to be that this a mostly US/liberal thing and that leftists don't speak this way. When in reality, in Latin American countries liberals would never speak like that. Only leftists and nonbinary people do. Stop giving Latine liberals so much credit.
hahaha, like it's taking them until now in my country to half-heartedly try, but since when not knowing a damn thing about other peoples is enough to stop you from showing everyone how much of a Cool, Smart Leftist Who Sticks It To The Libs you are?
what does that have to do with anything? it's a commonly used cultural identifier, even if it was true.
...women, nb and queer people don't have the right to try to change that commonly used cultural identifier? Says who?
it’s important because you’re putting too much effort into fighting something that has never been a indigenous term, even amongst the criollos. ....damn, language then is off-limits then. When americans finally stopped using fggot openly and leaving it to those who were queer, it was a good thing we also took that to stop using the word pto openly as well. We live in very oppressive conservative environments, changing that is part of our work as leftists.
First off this is nowhere near calling someone a removed.
But you got to agree the defense against inclusive language they're using is the same old shit they did, they're doing with fggot=pto (B-but the language is sacred! It's so annoying I have to think before I talk! As True Leftists, we know Latins are racist, so we got to be racist to "win" them over!)
Mypoint is that they are imposing themselves over everyone else in a way that is not only questionable, but turning an easy victory into something that antagonizes people sensitive about these things
Oh god, you're in a leftist space. Almost everything we believe and want here would be "imposting things in latinamerica!!" in some way to the ways they currently are! You wouldn't have a problem discussing socialism to a latin, even if they're sensitive because of anti-communist propaganda, you shouldn't have a problem of trying to respect and promote inclusive language
because of gueros.
Not people in latin america fall into gendered language binaries. Not everything is all-powerful white people poisoning us, the innocent, dumb latins.
Just take the easy win and use latin.
And I like to think you're still reading after this point, cus I agree. I prefer latin instead of latino-latine-latin@ (tho I'm a bit impartial to this one, it's true some people have pronouns that don't end in o-a)-latinx. But I respect its use in the name of inclusion. If you believe spanish should be a more inclusive language, then we're on the same page. How to make it inclusive, is another issue entirely, but it's one that's better discussed and dealt with amongst queer-nb-women latin progressives and not whatever dumb anglo or socially conservative latin can come up with.
the perfect example of a low effort cause that villifies a people for speaking in a way that is authentic.
...bigotry is authentic? I think I'll pass with your "authenticity".
They’re sensative becaus gringos keep trying to force them to speak a certain way and back hom the elite tried to sanitize and europeanize their culture.
What the fuck. Why are you just parroting right wing talking points about the Libs Just Forcing Progressiveness Down Our Throats????
We really should look into more race stuff when it comes to latin america, yeah there’s no one drop rule but the inequalities and cultural hegemony are obvious.
....are you american???
Performativity is not a real solution, it’s symbolism.
again, it's inclusive language. In here, we accept inclusive language. In latamerica, we're just trying to do the same. This is not hard to understand.
Then you'll know gender neutral language is even more controversial in Latin America and not majority supported even in left circles, so do you really need me to get a poll from there?
I'll be real with you. I don't know any enbies and I'm neutral towards the idea of gender neutral language itself. The whole framing around this does come from the US, and it is a huge imposition, and the fact that there are some people in Latin America who adopt this regardless of this fact doesn't do much for me. All I know is I'm allowed to be mad at the fact that bougie hipsters from America have more of a voice than 99% of regular people put together, and I don't care what anyone else thinks.
Then you’ll know gender neutral language is even more controversial in Latin America and not majority supported even in left circles, so do you really need me to get a poll from there?
Women having the choice of abortion is also controversial in Latin America and you'd be surprised how many so-called progressives here would believe in some conservative trash while claiming to give a fuck, but here we are, having to be nuanced, cus your average anglo cannot be bothered to shut up and listen.
I don't really understand what you're trying to say with this comment. Sorry, I'm kinda dizzy cuz I'm getting a bunch of replies and I'm not used to that haha
And sorry to hear about the excess of replies, but this is a touchy subject and you should know this sort of thing is really frustrating to deal with as a latinx who has to listen to idiot anglos trying to make everything about themselves and how can they remain ignorant while being "leftists".
We have a brain and we can have struggles outside your suburb. If you can't be bothered to listen to us, just shut up.
But the suburb in Latam is usually poor, because the poor transportation system means there was never a white flight. Shouldn't you be saying I'm from the city core if I'm supposed to be a delusional privileged person?
you sound like you're just an american slowly deprogramming all the racist, insensitive crap they forced in your head.
LMAO then you're just a brazilian slowly deprogramming all the racist, insensitive crap they forced in your head.
I'm an internalized racist now, you can tell from my comments. Amazing
Or are you going to tell me brazil is some sort of socially progressive vanguard for queer people?
The replies are piling up so fast that I didn't even get this notification. No I don't think that
I’ll be real with you. I don’t know any enbies and I’m neutral towards the idea of gender neutral language itself. Then why oh why do you think your opinion has any weight to a bunch of people you don't even know about?!
The whole framing around this does come from the US, and it is a huge imposition, and the fact that there are some people in Latin America who adopt this regardless of this fact doesn’t do much for me. All I know is I’m allowed to be mad at the fact that bougie hipsters from America have more of a voice than 99% of regular people put together, and I don’t care what anyone else thinks. Don't care where it comes from, the reasoning (of including people outside of the o/a is something I respect, as you should as a so-called leftist) and "the imposition" (maybe having to think about your convo or, gasp, apologize if someone would prefer a more neutral term!) and you're acting like a bougie hipster yourself. Queer people are regular people too, we exist outside of your dipshit liberal acquaintances.
Then why oh why do you think your opinion has any weight to a bunch of people you don’t even know about?!
I don't, I just posted a fucking poll. You guys are the ones making this about my personal beliefs.
Don’t care where it comes from, the reasoning (of including people outside of the o/a is something I respect, as you should as a so-called leftist) and “the imposition” (maybe having to think about your convo or, gasp, apologize if someone would prefer a more neutral term!) and you’re acting like a bougie hipster yourself. Queer people are regular people too, we exist outside of your dipshit liberal acquaintances.
If that's being a bougie hipster then 99% of the population is a bougie hispter. That can't be the case, so I'm by definition not a bougie hipster. Also I'm LGBT and I have LGBT friends, and they don't use this language either. Enbies might, but I don't know any.
If that’s being a bougie hipster then 99% of the population is a bougie hispter. That can’t be the case so I’m by definition not a bougie hipster.
OH MY GOD WHICH PART OF LATINAMERICA BEING CONSERVATIVE AS SHIT, SO MUCH SO THAT IT NEEDS THIS STRUGGLE SESSION DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND. Uggh, I hope you're just a confused kid. Just, please, this is not liberal white americans just brainwashing us because we're too dumb and helpless to have social issues of our own.
Also I’m LGBT and I have LGBT friends, and they don’t use this language either. Enbies might, but I don’t know any.
I'm LGBT, being LGBT doesn't make you incapable of being insensitive or a bigot. Just ask the LGB terfs.
I'm just saying I don't really appreciate the fact that you apparently think you get to be a dick and hurl abuse at me as much as you want and I just have to sit here and take it cuz i don't like a fucking word, and it's making me consider terminating this convo prematurely unless you get your shit together.
You started by putting up a poll of US latinx saying they don't use that word, which means very little. If you don't like that word, that's fine, but if you care about queer people, nb people who don't want to be forced into linguistic binaries (which is part of being a good socialist) you respect that first, maybe discuss it with them if it's good for the both of you, but to act like this is some sort of anglo conspiracy is ridiculous. You should know better than anyone how oppresively conservative our latinamerican countries can be and how that can seep into us, even if we can't see it.
You think hispanics outside of anglo countries are using latinx more? They definitely aren't. The word only really works in English.
Progressive latinx are trying to make that stick, because most latinx people are awful to queer people and take every small change as outrageous.
And they are completely disregarding the Spanish language in doing so. There are more sensible alternatives like "latine" or just "latin", but they decided to go with the one that isn't pronounceable in Spanish.
The spanish language isn't sacrosant dude, I think almost all (with the exception of latino=latin, amigo=amig, etc) are awkard, but I respect their use if it makes women/queer/nb people more included. God knows they're not right now.
Again, you can be more inclusive without just throwing x everywhere. If you want to change a language, you have to make it pronounceable.
That says nothing, considering that it doesnt take into account the amount of people that use gender neutral language in spanish or english overall. People in latinamerica still dont use gender neutral language either.
Had someone say that I had internalized racism for calling myself Hispanic since to them it was code word for "His SP*C". This person was white.
Over 300 fucking comments lol, who invited the anglos and spanish speaking chuds jesus
I am Spanish. If you want to use gender-neutral term for Latin people, use Latin. Latinx is ridiculous, "Latine" is redundant because of how words are pronounced. The entire language is gendered, it would already be an epic quest to make it gender-neutral, let alone make it inclusive for non-binary people. You may as well invent a new language at that point.
The word completely disregards the Spanish language. Who tf thought it was a good idea?
Latinos is already gender neutral in a technical sense, but if you really wanna be woke about it at least use something that sounds reasonably Spanish like Latines.
ITT white leftists talking about how to refer to minorities
Just a small thing.
Making fun of the X in gender inclusive spanish is akin to making transphobic jokes. Its what the chuds in latinamerica do.
Because the phrase is exclusively used for liberal activists to signal to each other that their woke and is completely out of touch with people not involved in activism.
It's lowkey colonialist because it's a #woke intervention into a language where it makes no sense. Nobody even knows how to say Latinx in Spanish because it makes no sense, and gendered words in Spanish are just how the language works. It's not like English where "mankind" is explicitly gendered. It's patronizing to actual Latinos, none of whom I know use Latinx and have often complained about it as being a plot by white people to Anglicize Spanish. Most Latinos I know actually prefer Hispanic over Latino/Latinx, and there's substantial data to that effect.
Latin-ekis is how you say it in Spanish, and it's just an attempt to create a gender neutral morphology in a gendered language. No one is "imposing" it on the Spanish language via some colonial mandate, and many of the people who made the term are part of the diaspora and speak Spanish themselves. Many prefer Hispanic, but that has its own historical context and shouldn't be taken as "the will" of Latinos, since it is a group of people that are super divided by class, race, nationality and so on.
Some people say Latine, and some people say Latinx. They're all fledgling attempts to deal with a gendered language and Latinx originated in diaspora activist communities and is mostly used in that context, but I don't really see it as a colonial intervention (in what is already the language of colonisers!)
I don’t really see it as a colonial intervention (in what is already the language of colonisers!)
This. The RAE is the talking point latines use to avoid using inclusive language.
Yeah this is the part that makes it so weird for me as someone whose studied the language. It's a totally anglo invention.
La pronunciación propuesta de latinx en español es latine. La única razón por la que se debe evitar el leguaje inclusivo con esa escritura es accesibilidad. Los lectores de pantallas no reconocen a la x como una vocal.
Inclusiveness of everyone. Including nonbinary people. Rejection of Spanish colonialism, we have the right to change the language we speak regardless of what a foreign Royal institution says.
It allows you to keep the original spelling almost intact. There are rules for e in Spanish.
Example:
Los chicos.
Using the e, you have to change the c to a qu digraph. Like this:
Les chiques.
But the x doesn't have this rules, all you need to know is that you read it like an e. Like this:
Lxs chicxs.
Furthermore, some masculine words use the letter e. You can accept this and more on, or use the x.
Los autores.
Les autores.
Lxs autorxs.
Add to this the fact that, aesthetically, the x "crosses out" the gendered part of the word. It drives the message very clearly.
We're trying our best really. Both options are valid and serve the same purpose.
Oh that makes sense, writing X and pronouncing it E seems a lot better than saying "ekis" all the time. I think the pronunciation matters way more than the symbol.
You are very close to having convinced me, I just have a few questions as I was always convinced that this stuff only happened with the letter X because there was a concurrent trend which involved an increased use of the phrase folx instead of folks within English.
How do LGBT communities within Latin American countries approach this topic. Ive always just gone with the "e" or refer to everything in the plural masculine.
I'm not sure I understand this question. While yes, gender inclusive language is essential to include nonbinary people in our language, that's not the only movement that advocates for it. It's as much of a feminist issue as it is an LGBT (particularly trans) issue.
But LGBT communities deal with this very similarly than other communities... the concept of more than one gender gets ridiculed by transphobes, LGBT bootlickers pride themselves on being "not one of those crazy ones ruining our language" AND other people are strong advocates for it.
Like I said, there isn't much difference between the letters. They're meant to be pronounced the same. The aesthetics and the ease of use of the x also include the confusion the letter gives to ignorant people ("how do I read this?") and screen readers. The way the e looks so natural in our language also includes the few masculine forms and the few ortographic tweaks you need to make. I choose the e for the accesibility reasons.
You should try it out, at least when you're writing and interacting with others online. It wasn't till I got to a space where gender inclusive language was welcomed that I felt comfortable using it. It's not as bad as it sounds and when you get practice it comes naturally. And you don't get married to it, you can use it in certain situations where you're safe and avoid it in others. I'm not asking you to out yourself as a leftist LGBT supporter in front of a reactionary boss.
Tell me, is misgendering nonbinary people worth your discomfort in changing one letter? Is including every gender in your discussions ineffective?
People associate it with wokelibs, who cares. People also associate it with degenerate LGBT people who will "groom children" and feminists who want to kill all straight men. Or crazy people who "believe there are more than two genders".
Gender inclusive language proposes to use the x or the e for any term that refers to a group of people of more than one gender or anyone of undefined gender.
El autor de esta obra es un desconocido.
Turns into:
Le autore de esta obra es une desconocide.
Or
Lx autorx de esta obra es unx desconocidx.
Another example.
Los estudiantes deben estar preparados para el examen
Turns into:
Les estudiantes deben estar preparades para el examen.
Or
Lxs estudiantes deben estar preparadxs para el examen.
Gramatical gender of non-human things is irrelevant. It's just another language feature like the number.
all it took was them less-than-subtly implying that I’m some sort of reactionary or bigot.
If you're talking about me, that really wasn't my intention. If that's how it came accross then I'm sorry. I guess I have to phrase things better.
:/ I can change "your" to "our" if that makes you more comfortable.
Some people keep up the morphology in other words that refer to others, I'm not saying its necessarily a pleasant or easily adopted change, but damn people just love to shoot this down because they associate it with woke-scolds but most don't even speak Spanish and have to get referred to with gender language when they don't want to.
Yeah I think that's where a lot of my hesitation comes from—that it's been adopted so quickly in circles I'm deeply suspicious of, but not within the Hispanic community writ large. If and when that changes, I'll all for the term.
There is no "Hispanic community," people in that "community" disagree about a bunch of shit and don't share the same interests at all and a bunch of them are religious, anti-LGBTQ reactionaries and LGBTQ Latinos are always struggling against these people. People should be able to recongnise this struggle and side with the people who most need the help.
Are there any essays you've seen by actual Latinx folk arguing for the term? I've read a lot of the opposite side but haven't seen much written support for it, and would totally be down to reading. You're right that there's not one monolithic "community," did not mean to imply that. Just meant that this is something that ideally should be worked out amongst those have a stake in it.
Critical support for Latinx is something I can get behind. :sankara-salute:
This has been the take I've seen, but I'm still just surprised no one has made a more concerted effort to push for the use of "e" endings or just refer to the gender neutral singular in the plural masculine.
The plural masculine thing is because spanish isn't my first language and I mostly just learned it in school so some stuff isn't correct. But I always learned to address groups of men and woman in the plural masculine and it doesn't seem weird to me to continue to do that in the same vain as they/them pronouns in english not usually being used in the singluar.
Spanish is a completely different language from English and there's absolutely no reason to follow its grammar. It's insulting to imply Spanish speakers couldn't come up with good ideas of gender neutrality. They/them are gender neutral pronouns, masculine forms in Spanish are not.
You're already coming from a mistaken place where you assume that this is only about creting a gender neutral term (which it is) but also a way feminists want to challenge the patriarchal assumption that the average person is a man. Or that women are de facto included when you're clearly addressing men. Language is more than just grammar, it changes. That you were told one thing in your class doesn't change the fact that its users need something else now.
they/them pronouns in english not usually being used in the singluar.
They/them is used all the time to refer to someone you don't know the gender of, most people don't even realise they are doing it.
"How was work?"
"Got a new manager"
"What are they like?""You look angry, what happened?"
"Some prick nearly knocked me off my bike"
"People like them need to learn how to drive"
the LGBTQ community also does not exist, considering the scumfuck infighting among the letters
I mean, point taken, I was just trying to highlight a tension within what may at first seem like a monolithic community, but the same can be said about LGBTQ.
in my experience, some of the L hates the T, some of the G hates the Q, some of the L and G hate the B, some of the B hate the T, no one acknowledges the A.... the list goes on
wouldn't most communities not identify with a nonbinary term at this point though? IDK I guess I just don't ever see anyone considering that maybe nonbinary people didn't want to use the gendered words?
The continued Americanization of the world at the expense of everything else to conform to a silly word that makes people feel like they're #woke while being incredibly patronizing?
It's literally not patronising! Who is saying they are patronised? Everyone I've met who takes issue with it and talks about the threat to the Spanish language is super reactionary, and then there are some who take issue with how awkward it is and hard to implement but come from a place of wanting to solve the issue of a gendered language we inherited from colonisers.
I've read some stuff to the contrary and my Hispanic friends who don't like and think it's patronizing are definitely not reactionary, but granted this is all anecdotal. If somebody who identifies as Latinx wants to be called Latinx, then yeah that's what I'll call them. Ultimately it's not my place to say one way or another since I'm not part of the community, I just want to push back about those outside of the community so readily adopting the term.
I'll have you know that Hispanic is in no way a replacement of Latine/Latinx/Latino. Brazilian people are also Latine and not included by the term Hispanic.
As someone who listened to a shit ton of latin-american punk where they regularly use latinx this is very new to me.
Hit me up with some recommendations. That sounds dope.
Migra Violenta is straight up fast hc/punk, probably the most well known punk band from Argentina, especially their album Holocausto Capitalista is heavy as fuck. Los Dolares , Venezuela, probably one of the most underrated crust bands in the world with the same openly antiimperialist message, no stoppages. Piromanos del Ritmo from Chile, similar to MV, not as straight forward but still cool. Beatriz Carnicero, Odioso Dios. Chulo, powerviolence bands from Uruguay, Argentina and Colombia, OD is my favorite, tons of like 10 second songs even faster than Lack of Interest does it. Besthöven THE Brazilian crust band, they're around for more than 20 years i think, have splits with all the big names, bit redundant for me but i get the appeal.
But this is the tip of the iceberg only, it's a very rewarding task to submerge into latin american punk/hardcore because there are tons of hidden gems there and basically everything is drenched in leftist politics. This blog has a lot of stuff up for starters just put the countries in the searchbox and you can have a feast.
