yup, struggle session time
edit: no one is right, everyone is wrong :^)
edit 2: this post is actually dedicated to Amy Goodman, please stop trying to sound cool grandma
yup, struggle session time
edit: no one is right, everyone is wrong :^)
edit 2: this post is actually dedicated to Amy Goodman, please stop trying to sound cool grandma
It's lowkey colonialist because it's a #woke intervention into a language where it makes no sense. Nobody even knows how to say Latinx in Spanish because it makes no sense, and gendered words in Spanish are just how the language works. It's not like English where "mankind" is explicitly gendered. It's patronizing to actual Latinos, none of whom I know use Latinx and have often complained about it as being a plot by white people to Anglicize Spanish. Most Latinos I know actually prefer Hispanic over Latino/Latinx, and there's substantial data to that effect.
Latin-ekis is how you say it in Spanish, and it's just an attempt to create a gender neutral morphology in a gendered language. No one is "imposing" it on the Spanish language via some colonial mandate, and many of the people who made the term are part of the diaspora and speak Spanish themselves. Many prefer Hispanic, but that has its own historical context and shouldn't be taken as "the will" of Latinos, since it is a group of people that are super divided by class, race, nationality and so on.
latine already exists
Some people say Latine, and some people say Latinx. They're all fledgling attempts to deal with a gendered language and Latinx originated in diaspora activist communities and is mostly used in that context, but I don't really see it as a colonial intervention (in what is already the language of colonisers!)
This. The RAE is the talking point latines use to avoid using inclusive language.
Yeah this is the part that makes it so weird for me as someone whose studied the language. It's a totally anglo invention.
La pronunciación propuesta de latinx en español es latine. La única razón por la que se debe evitar el leguaje inclusivo con esa escritura es accesibilidad. Los lectores de pantallas no reconocen a la x como una vocal.
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Inclusiveness of everyone. Including nonbinary people. Rejection of Spanish colonialism, we have the right to change the language we speak regardless of what a foreign Royal institution says.
But why x of all letters instead of e? E is like, right there.
It allows you to keep the original spelling almost intact. There are rules for e in Spanish.
Example:
Using the e, you have to change the c to a qu digraph. Like this:
But the x doesn't have this rules, all you need to know is that you read it like an e. Like this:
Furthermore, some masculine words use the letter e. You can accept this and more on, or use the x.
Add to this the fact that, aesthetically, the x "crosses out" the gendered part of the word. It drives the message very clearly.
We're trying our best really. Both options are valid and serve the same purpose.
Oh that makes sense, writing X and pronouncing it E seems a lot better than saying "ekis" all the time. I think the pronunciation matters way more than the symbol.
You are very close to having convinced me, I just have a few questions as I was always convinced that this stuff only happened with the letter X because there was a concurrent trend which involved an increased use of the phrase folx instead of folks within English.
How do LGBT communities within Latin American countries approach this topic. Ive always just gone with the "e" or refer to everything in the plural masculine.
I'm not sure I understand this question. While yes, gender inclusive language is essential to include nonbinary people in our language, that's not the only movement that advocates for it. It's as much of a feminist issue as it is an LGBT (particularly trans) issue.
But LGBT communities deal with this very similarly than other communities... the concept of more than one gender gets ridiculed by transphobes, LGBT bootlickers pride themselves on being "not one of those crazy ones ruining our language" AND other people are strong advocates for it.
Like I said, there isn't much difference between the letters. They're meant to be pronounced the same. The aesthetics and the ease of use of the x also include the confusion the letter gives to ignorant people ("how do I read this?") and screen readers. The way the e looks so natural in our language also includes the few masculine forms and the few ortographic tweaks you need to make. I choose the e for the accesibility reasons.
You should try it out, at least when you're writing and interacting with others online. It wasn't till I got to a space where gender inclusive language was welcomed that I felt comfortable using it. It's not as bad as it sounds and when you get practice it comes naturally. And you don't get married to it, you can use it in certain situations where you're safe and avoid it in others. I'm not asking you to out yourself as a leftist LGBT supporter in front of a reactionary boss.
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Tell me, is misgendering nonbinary people worth your discomfort in changing one letter? Is including every gender in your discussions ineffective?
People associate it with wokelibs, who cares. People also associate it with degenerate LGBT people who will "groom children" and feminists who want to kill all straight men. Or crazy people who "believe there are more than two genders".
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Gender inclusive language proposes to use the x or the e for any term that refers to a group of people of more than one gender or anyone of undefined gender.
Turns into:
Or
Another example.
Turns into:
Or
Gramatical gender of non-human things is irrelevant. It's just another language feature like the number.
If you're talking about me, that really wasn't my intention. If that's how it came accross then I'm sorry. I guess I have to phrase things better.
:/ I can change "your" to "our" if that makes you more comfortable.
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Some people keep up the morphology in other words that refer to others, I'm not saying its necessarily a pleasant or easily adopted change, but damn people just love to shoot this down because they associate it with woke-scolds but most don't even speak Spanish and have to get referred to with gender language when they don't want to.
Yeah I think that's where a lot of my hesitation comes from—that it's been adopted so quickly in circles I'm deeply suspicious of, but not within the Hispanic community writ large. If and when that changes, I'll all for the term.
There is no "Hispanic community," people in that "community" disagree about a bunch of shit and don't share the same interests at all and a bunch of them are religious, anti-LGBTQ reactionaries and LGBTQ Latinos are always struggling against these people. People should be able to recongnise this struggle and side with the people who most need the help.
the LGBTQ community also does not exist, considering the scumfuck infighting among the letters
I mean, point taken, I was just trying to highlight a tension within what may at first seem like a monolithic community, but the same can be said about LGBTQ.
its called the vowels for a reason L G B and sometimes T
in my experience, some of the L hates the T, some of the G hates the Q, some of the L and G hate the B, some of the B hate the T, no one acknowledges the A.... the list goes on
Are there any essays you've seen by actual Latinx folk arguing for the term? I've read a lot of the opposite side but haven't seen much written support for it, and would totally be down to reading. You're right that there's not one monolithic "community," did not mean to imply that. Just meant that this is something that ideally should be worked out amongst those have a stake in it.
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Critical support for Latinx is something I can get behind. :sankara-salute:
This has been the take I've seen, but I'm still just surprised no one has made a more concerted effort to push for the use of "e" endings or just refer to the gender neutral singular in the plural masculine.
Ajá...
Hmm, por qué será.
The plural masculine thing is because spanish isn't my first language and I mostly just learned it in school so some stuff isn't correct. But I always learned to address groups of men and woman in the plural masculine and it doesn't seem weird to me to continue to do that in the same vain as they/them pronouns in english not usually being used in the singluar.
Spanish is a completely different language from English and there's absolutely no reason to follow its grammar. It's insulting to imply Spanish speakers couldn't come up with good ideas of gender neutrality. They/them are gender neutral pronouns, masculine forms in Spanish are not.
You're already coming from a mistaken place where you assume that this is only about creting a gender neutral term (which it is) but also a way feminists want to challenge the patriarchal assumption that the average person is a man. Or that women are de facto included when you're clearly addressing men. Language is more than just grammar, it changes. That you were told one thing in your class doesn't change the fact that its users need something else now.
They/them is used all the time to refer to someone you don't know the gender of, most people don't even realise they are doing it.
"How was work?"
"Got a new manager"
"What are they like?"
"You look angry, what happened?"
"Some prick nearly knocked me off my bike"
"People like them need to learn how to drive"
Sure, but when the overwhelming majority of Hispanics reject a term that seems to have reached overwhelming popularity and consensus within the #resistance community, your alarm bells should be going off.
wouldn't most communities not identify with a nonbinary term at this point though? IDK I guess I just don't ever see anyone considering that maybe nonbinary people didn't want to use the gendered words?
alarm bells for what? what is at stake here?
The continued Americanization of the world at the expense of everything else to conform to a silly word that makes people feel like they're #woke while being incredibly patronizing?
It's literally not patronising! Who is saying they are patronised? Everyone I've met who takes issue with it and talks about the threat to the Spanish language is super reactionary, and then there are some who take issue with how awkward it is and hard to implement but come from a place of wanting to solve the issue of a gendered language we inherited from colonisers.
I've read some stuff to the contrary and my Hispanic friends who don't like and think it's patronizing are definitely not reactionary, but granted this is all anecdotal. If somebody who identifies as Latinx wants to be called Latinx, then yeah that's what I'll call them. Ultimately it's not my place to say one way or another since I'm not part of the community, I just want to push back about those outside of the community so readily adopting the term.
I'll have you know that Hispanic is in no way a replacement of Latine/Latinx/Latino. Brazilian people are also Latine and not included by the term Hispanic.
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As someone who listened to a shit ton of latin-american punk where they regularly use latinx this is very new to me.
Hit me up with some recommendations. That sounds dope.
Migra Violenta is straight up fast hc/punk, probably the most well known punk band from Argentina, especially their album Holocausto Capitalista is heavy as fuck. Los Dolares , Venezuela, probably one of the most underrated crust bands in the world with the same openly antiimperialist message, no stoppages. Piromanos del Ritmo from Chile, similar to MV, not as straight forward but still cool. Beatriz Carnicero, Odioso Dios. Chulo, powerviolence bands from Uruguay, Argentina and Colombia, OD is my favorite, tons of like 10 second songs even faster than Lack of Interest does it. Besthöven THE Brazilian crust band, they're around for more than 20 years i think, have splits with all the big names, bit redundant for me but i get the appeal.
But this is the tip of the iceberg only, it's a very rewarding task to submerge into latin american punk/hardcore because there are tons of hidden gems there and basically everything is drenched in leftist politics. This blog has a lot of stuff up for starters just put the countries in the searchbox and you can have a feast.