yup, struggle session time

edit: no one is right, everyone is wrong :^)

edit 2: this post is actually dedicated to Amy Goodman, please stop trying to sound cool grandma

    • czechvault [he/him,doe/deer]
      5·
      4 years ago

      Good to know only US Hispanics are dealing with this issue and that they're a socioeconomical monolith, very cool.

        • czechvault [he/him,doe/deer]
          8·
          4 years ago

          That you educate yourself, this is something I personally have seen being discussed and done by feminist and progressive groups in my own country.

                • czechvault [he/him,doe/deer]
                  6·
                  4 years ago

                  It's different when it comes to the country since it's, you know, a country. But if you want to call it that way to own the "woke" queers and people that don't fit the forced binaries in Latin America because you're a Smart, Good Leftist, go ahead.

                    • gay [any]
                      8·
                      4 years ago

                      I identify as Attack Helicopter, did you just assume my gender. Accross all languages, one joke.

                        • czechvault [he/him,doe/deer]
                          3·
                          4 years ago

                          "If I make a joke about how ridiculous it's that gender neutral people try to be included in a non-gender neutral language, I get one step closer to True Leftism"

                        • gay [any]
                          5·
                          4 years ago

                          Never said that you hate trans people. Just that it's the same joke.

                            • gay [any]
                              2·
                              4 years ago

                              Yeah it is. People mock the use of e/x in that exact way all the time. "It's ridiculous, look at me using it wrong on purpose": Chicxs, mx fux x mx casx y prendx mx computadorx....

                                • gay [any]
                                  1·
                                  4 years ago

                                  No? It's all of this together that makes it the same joke:

                                  *Méxicx

                                  *ignorantx

                                  pendejx

                                  You finally got it right

                                  *retrógradx

                                  That is not mocking "woke discourse" that is mocking gender neutral language as a concept.

                                  • hagensfohawk [none/use name]
                                    4·
                                    4 years ago

                                    The first was an actual joke. The others were me intentionally being an asshole by making the same joke.

                                      • czechvault [he/him,doe/deer]
                                        2·
                                        4 years ago

                                        It's funny cus they think they're a Cool, Irreverent Leftist, who doesn't fall for liberal shit. Just conservative shit.

                                        • gay [any]
                                          ·
                                          4 years ago

                                          The misunderstanding seems to be that this a mostly US/liberal thing and that leftists don't speak this way. When in reality, in Latin American countries liberals would never speak like that. Only leftists and nonbinary people do. Stop giving Latine liberals so much credit.

                                          • czechvault [he/him,doe/deer]
                                            ·
                                            4 years ago

                                            hahaha, like it's taking them until now in my country to half-heartedly try, but since when not knowing a damn thing about other peoples is enough to stop you from showing everyone how much of a Cool, Smart Leftist Who Sticks It To The Libs you are?

                    • czechvault [he/him,doe/deer]
                      ·
                      4 years ago

                      what does that have to do with anything? it's a commonly used cultural identifier, even if it was true.

                        • czechvault [he/him,doe/deer]
                          ·
                          4 years ago

                          ...women, nb and queer people don't have the right to try to change that commonly used cultural identifier? Says who?

                          it’s important because you’re putting too much effort into fighting something that has never been a indigenous term, even amongst the criollos. ....damn, language then is off-limits then. When americans finally stopped using fggot openly and leaving it to those who were queer, it was a good thing we also took that to stop using the word pto openly as well. We live in very oppressive conservative environments, changing that is part of our work as leftists.

                            • czechvault [he/him,doe/deer]
                              ·
                              4 years ago

                              First off this is nowhere near calling someone a removed.

                              But you got to agree the defense against inclusive language they're using is the same old shit they did, they're doing with fggot=pto (B-but the language is sacred! It's so annoying I have to think before I talk! As True Leftists, we know Latins are racist, so we got to be racist to "win" them over!)

                              Mypoint is that they are imposing themselves over everyone else in a way that is not only questionable, but turning an easy victory into something that antagonizes people sensitive about these things

                              Oh god, you're in a leftist space. Almost everything we believe and want here would be "imposting things in latinamerica!!" in some way to the ways they currently are! You wouldn't have a problem discussing socialism to a latin, even if they're sensitive because of anti-communist propaganda, you shouldn't have a problem of trying to respect and promote inclusive language

                              because of gueros.

                              Not people in latin america fall into gendered language binaries. Not everything is all-powerful white people poisoning us, the innocent, dumb latins.

                              Just take the easy win and use latin.

                              And I like to think you're still reading after this point, cus I agree. I prefer latin instead of latino-latine-latin@ (tho I'm a bit impartial to this one, it's true some people have pronouns that don't end in o-a)-latinx. But I respect its use in the name of inclusion. If you believe spanish should be a more inclusive language, then we're on the same page. How to make it inclusive, is another issue entirely, but it's one that's better discussed and dealt with amongst queer-nb-women latin progressives and not whatever dumb anglo or socially conservative latin can come up with.

                                • czechvault [he/him,doe/deer]
                                  1·
                                  4 years ago

                                  the perfect example of a low effort cause that villifies a people for speaking in a way that is authentic.

                                  ...bigotry is authentic? I think I'll pass with your "authenticity".

                                  They’re sensative becaus gringos keep trying to force them to speak a certain way and back hom the elite tried to sanitize and europeanize their culture.

                                  What the fuck. Why are you just parroting right wing talking points about the Libs Just Forcing Progressiveness Down Our Throats????

                                  We really should look into more race stuff when it comes to latin america, yeah there’s no one drop rule but the inequalities and cultural hegemony are obvious.

                                  ....are you american???

                                  Performativity is not a real solution, it’s symbolism.

                                  again, it's inclusive language. In here, we accept inclusive language. In latamerica, we're just trying to do the same. This is not hard to understand.

              • hopefulmulberry [none/use name]
                2·
                4 years ago

                Then you'll know gender neutral language is even more controversial in Latin America and not majority supported even in left circles, so do you really need me to get a poll from there?

                I'll be real with you. I don't know any enbies and I'm neutral towards the idea of gender neutral language itself. The whole framing around this does come from the US, and it is a huge imposition, and the fact that there are some people in Latin America who adopt this regardless of this fact doesn't do much for me. All I know is I'm allowed to be mad at the fact that bougie hipsters from America have more of a voice than 99% of regular people put together, and I don't care what anyone else thinks.

                • czechvault [he/him,doe/deer]
                  1·
                  4 years ago

                  Then you’ll know gender neutral language is even more controversial in Latin America and not majority supported even in left circles, so do you really need me to get a poll from there?

                  Women having the choice of abortion is also controversial in Latin America and you'd be surprised how many so-called progressives here would believe in some conservative trash while claiming to give a fuck, but here we are, having to be nuanced, cus your average anglo cannot be bothered to shut up and listen.

                  • hopefulmulberry [none/use name]
                    ·
                    4 years ago

                    I don't really understand what you're trying to say with this comment. Sorry, I'm kinda dizzy cuz I'm getting a bunch of replies and I'm not used to that haha

                    • czechvault [he/him,doe/deer]
                      ·
                      4 years ago

                      And sorry to hear about the excess of replies, but this is a touchy subject and you should know this sort of thing is really frustrating to deal with as a latinx who has to listen to idiot anglos trying to make everything about themselves and how can they remain ignorant while being "leftists".

                    • czechvault [he/him,doe/deer]
                      ·
                      4 years ago

                      We have a brain and we can have struggles outside your suburb. If you can't be bothered to listen to us, just shut up.

                      • hopefulmulberry [none/use name]
                        ·
                        4 years ago

                        But the suburb in Latam is usually poor, because the poor transportation system means there was never a white flight. Shouldn't you be saying I'm from the city core if I'm supposed to be a delusional privileged person?

                • czechvault [he/him,doe/deer]
                  ·
                  4 years ago

                  I’ll be real with you. I don’t know any enbies and I’m neutral towards the idea of gender neutral language itself. Then why oh why do you think your opinion has any weight to a bunch of people you don't even know about?!

                  The whole framing around this does come from the US, and it is a huge imposition, and the fact that there are some people in Latin America who adopt this regardless of this fact doesn’t do much for me. All I know is I’m allowed to be mad at the fact that bougie hipsters from America have more of a voice than 99% of regular people put together, and I don’t care what anyone else thinks. Don't care where it comes from, the reasoning (of including people outside of the o/a is something I respect, as you should as a so-called leftist) and "the imposition" (maybe having to think about your convo or, gasp, apologize if someone would prefer a more neutral term!) and you're acting like a bougie hipster yourself. Queer people are regular people too, we exist outside of your dipshit liberal acquaintances.

                  • hopefulmulberry [none/use name]
                    ·
                    4 years ago

                    Then why oh why do you think your opinion has any weight to a bunch of people you don’t even know about?!

                    I don't, I just posted a fucking poll. You guys are the ones making this about my personal beliefs.

                    Don’t care where it comes from, the reasoning (of including people outside of the o/a is something I respect, as you should as a so-called leftist) and “the imposition” (maybe having to think about your convo or, gasp, apologize if someone would prefer a more neutral term!) and you’re acting like a bougie hipster yourself. Queer people are regular people too, we exist outside of your dipshit liberal acquaintances.

                    If that's being a bougie hipster then 99% of the population is a bougie hispter. That can't be the case, so I'm by definition not a bougie hipster. Also I'm LGBT and I have LGBT friends, and they don't use this language either. Enbies might, but I don't know any.

                    • czechvault [he/him,doe/deer]
                      2·
                      4 years ago

                      If that’s being a bougie hipster then 99% of the population is a bougie hispter. That can’t be the case so I’m by definition not a bougie hipster.

                      OH MY GOD WHICH PART OF LATINAMERICA BEING CONSERVATIVE AS SHIT, SO MUCH SO THAT IT NEEDS THIS STRUGGLE SESSION DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND. Uggh, I hope you're just a confused kid. Just, please, this is not liberal white americans just brainwashing us because we're too dumb and helpless to have social issues of our own.

                      Also I’m LGBT and I have LGBT friends, and they don’t use this language either. Enbies might, but I don’t know any.

                      I'm LGBT, being LGBT doesn't make you incapable of being insensitive or a bigot. Just ask the LGB terfs.

                          • hopefulmulberry [none/use name]
                            1·
                            4 years ago

                            I'm just saying I don't really appreciate the fact that you apparently think you get to be a dick and hurl abuse at me as much as you want and I just have to sit here and take it cuz i don't like a fucking word, and it's making me consider terminating this convo prematurely unless you get your shit together.

                            • czechvault [he/him,doe/deer]
                              2·
                              4 years ago

                              You started by putting up a poll of US latinx saying they don't use that word, which means very little. If you don't like that word, that's fine, but if you care about queer people, nb people who don't want to be forced into linguistic binaries (which is part of being a good socialist) you respect that first, maybe discuss it with them if it's good for the both of you, but to act like this is some sort of anglo conspiracy is ridiculous. You should know better than anyone how oppresively conservative our latinamerican countries can be and how that can seep into us, even if we can't see it.

      • eduardog3000 [he/him]
        1·
        4 years ago

        You think hispanics outside of anglo countries are using latinx more? They definitely aren't. The word only really works in English.

        • czechvault [he/him,doe/deer]
          8·
          4 years ago

          Progressive latinx are trying to make that stick, because most latinx people are awful to queer people and take every small change as outrageous.

          • eduardog3000 [he/him]
            2·
            4 years ago

            And they are completely disregarding the Spanish language in doing so. There are more sensible alternatives like "latine" or just "latin", but they decided to go with the one that isn't pronounceable in Spanish.

            • czechvault [he/him,doe/deer]
              2·
              4 years ago

              The spanish language isn't sacrosant dude, I think almost all (with the exception of latino=latin, amigo=amig, etc) are awkard, but I respect their use if it makes women/queer/nb people more included. God knows they're not right now.

              • eduardog3000 [he/him]
                ·
                4 years ago

                Again, you can be more inclusive without just throwing x everywhere. If you want to change a language, you have to make it pronounceable.

    • ComradeAndy [he/him]
      ·
      4 years ago

      That says nothing, considering that it doesnt take into account the amount of people that use gender neutral language in spanish or english overall. People in latinamerica still dont use gender neutral language either.