What's the alternative? Keeping this up forever? I just don't think that's realistic at all, people are gonna be pissed if they have to go through lockdowns every few months for the rest of their lives.
Lol, why even bother with Socialism then? It's all part of the same struggle. We're living through a massive disabling event and you want them to defer to Capital. That is liberalism.
I dunno maybe I'm too drunk on a western viewpoint on this, maybe the zero-covid policy isn't really a big deal to most Chinese but it seems like people are kinda fucking tired of it, nobody wants to live in a state of emergency for the rest of their lives.
I'm not sure why you couldn't minimize the impact with mandatory vaccinations (maybe even yearly) and a bit less restrictions rather than full lockdowns all of the time.
yeah, thank youwhat a fucking ridiculous assertion to make. just the anxiety and stress alone from living in the total shit hole of a country i (and i assume you too) are living in , will give me some kind of chronic illness i think. i cant count the nuumber of issues ive started having after this nightmare began and i never stop thinking about how they wouldnt even be there if i were literally anywhere sane and that generally tends to respect human life over capital
fuck this place fuck it so hard every day i find myself fantasizing about some cool new action video game coming out, in which another 9/11 happens (involving just politicians and capitalists and etc....all fictional obviously)
im so fucking over this goddamn fucking shit fucking garbage fucking place
Seriously. I’ve somehow managed to avoid catching covid yet, but just the anxiety I have constantly about this has probably taken years off my life. My mental health was at a peak when the pandemic hit and earlier this year I checked into a psych hospital.
The basic fact that not only has my government at best abandoned me and at worst tried to kill me, even the people around me every day don’t seem to care about my or anyone else’s wellbeing, and it’s fucking devastating.
lucky you (not catching it).. im sorry you also can understand where im coming from though because the last few years it basically has felt like someones runnign the "hell simulator" on my consciousness from somewhere. i hope you are doing better after the psych hospital, coincidentally i had just come out of an inpatient setting that i had been in for like 2.5 months, when those first covid articles popped up (like the cusp of 2019/2020). ive had it twice and my mental state definitely feels worse, and whether or not its directly from the covid hardly even matters as its the way my mind has been functioning throughout the last year or two (this is after both of the infections).. im so just, for real, i cant believe anyone on this site is arguing that we need to just accept "this" essentially.... like why are you even a socialist (or anarchist) then? its just disappointing to be honest
im really sorry you can relate though :-/ im just going to send good vibes your way, hope we both get through this shit (and i mean this word relatively, extremely relatively) unscathed :anarchy-heart:
Yeah, most people here don't know Chinese people who actually have to live through zero-Covid. From my experience, only retirees are actually supportive of the policies with everyone else at best tolerating it for the sake of the more vulnerable. Yes, living in a depraved society that's trying to pretend Covid isn't real is a dystopian nightmare, but the million dollar question is do Chinese people realize that zero-Covid is preferable to a society that has given up on Covid?
This is the classic tailist vs commandist problem that all orgs have to face. We all know the science about what society ought to do to combat Covid. But what happens when that society
doesn't fully see the merit of zero-Covid? Like, do people here honestly believe zero-Covid would've been possible in any Western society that prioritizes personal freedom over collective health even if that society were socialist? Unless that society's socialist party just straight up enforces martial law and drops the hammer on protesters and people who break quarantines, no Western society, socialist or capitalist, has the popular mandate to enforce zero-Covid, certainly not a zero-Covid that's projected to last for years.
Fortunately, China is not of the West and various precautions like wearing surgical masks have long being normalized before Covid. But their patience isn't gonna last forever. Like, no present human society, not even China, is going to tolerate living under zero-Covid conditions for more than a decade.
Maybe if they had access to a more effective vaccine, and if the rest of the world wasn’t constantly incubating vaccine & immunity evasion. Capital wants a global market to play in, but won’t accept the governance required to ensure that market doesn’t kill the host.
Don't they have a better vaccine by now? If they don't then I guess the caution is more understandable, but I though their vaccines aren't THAT much worse than Pfizer & friends.
There's a nasally administered vaccine that provides mucosal immunity (no transmission) but the U.S. refuses to fund it.
I think there are two versions internationally available, I want to say China and Cuba but I'm not sure off the top of my head.
So yes, there is a better vaccine available. Plus there's the weird rumor the military has a universal vaccine but I never saw any hard details on that.
They have the vaccine, but peoples don't want to take it. We have to realized that China with 1.4 billions peoples will have different opinions on vaccination. The cpc achievement on educating the population is outstanding, but that doesn't mean there not gonna be percentage religious nuts that act like western right winger Christian nuts.
How do you know that for sure? It's millions dead in a shithole like the US where the government just doesn't give any fucks. I'm not convinced there isn't a more sensible middle-of-the-road way between constant state of emergency and just not giving any fucks.
Also don't Cuba and Vietnam have looser Covid policies? How are they faring wrt to the death rate?
Because vaccines don't stop the spread and offer limited protection against long covid. Are y'all not getting that regardless of your vaccination status, there is a limited amount of times you can catch a virus that attacks your immune system, your microcirculatory system, and all your organs?
Is long covid really that big of a deal for most people? I know exactly one person with a mild form of long-covid (sense of smell got fucked up) and I know a bunch of people that got it two or more times with no long term effects. I also only indirectly know of somebody dying from it.
Almost everybody I know that got vaxxed didn't really suffer too much from it. Also this year's wave is much smaller at least in my country, way less deaths than a year ago from now. My nurse friends aren't reporting any major surges in nearly a year.
Covid is nasty but I don't think it's going to be the end of us, I think a lot of people on this site are a bit too :doomer: about it. Honestly when it comes to pandemics we got fucking lucky, could have been a way nastier virus.
Looks like a low vaccination rate problem. In most articles experts are calling for more kids getting their boosters, which yeah I would completely agree with, boosters are cool and good and I would consider it a prerequisite for lifting strict zero-covid.
Again, how come Vietnam and Cuba don't have hundreds of thousands of deaths without having a strict zero-covid policy?
The article is paywalled, here's an archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20221123125303/https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/11/23/vaccinated-people-now-make-up-majority-covid-deaths/
The article is fairly scant on details but it seems the point it's trying to make is get the updated booster because your old vaccine immunity evaporated, which uh yeah makes sense. It doesn't look like the vaccines got worse, just that people refuse to get their boosters.
Fifty-eight percent of coronavirus deaths in August were people who were vaccinated or boosted
If I put in the effort to find the research that shows that countless people with vaccines and boosters were killed and disabled, will it change your mind? Like I can do it, but I suspect that you're not going to budge.
I get that vaccines aren't miracle silver bullets and some people are gonna die regardless of whether they're vaccinated or not.
I still think it's just plain fucking unrealistic to keep zero-covid going for the long term. The world collectively (save for a few countries) fucked up with dealing with Covid and that's not just gonna change, all countries are going to have to find ways of living with it.
Vietnam did have a strict zero covid, now they have thousands dead. Cuba had their borders locked, now they also have thousands dead. In both cases we have no idea how many hav long covid; which is why our pediatric hospitals are packed with rsv cases, because a significant chunk of the US population is now immunocompromised. We can stop now. You're clearly on board with some number of social murder.
You’re clearly on board with some number of social murder.
Everybody is on board with some number of social murder. Otherwise you should also be for banning cigarettes, alcohol, cars, being fat etc. A lot of human activities and behaviors are potentially hazardous yet we indulge in them, I don't see how this is any different. People die from the flu too, why don't we have zero-flu policies?
Also it's not like I'm saying China should imitate the west, just that there is probably a more tolerable middle-ground.
You pretending that chinese people aren't gonna be pissed with policies like these in the long term is just plain idealism. There's literally a person from China in this thread saying they're fucking sick of it already.
Also looking at Cuba it doesn't look that bad, it seems they got through the worst of it like many other countries: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/cuba/
People die from the flu too, why don’t we have zero-flu policies?
Good question I’ve actually been asking that for years. During flu season we should 100,000% do screening tests for flu at peoples workplaces and schools and quarantine and isolate those who are sick. Also mandatory vaccines and masks in public places.
It would save thousands of lives yearly as well as save millions of dollars in “productivity” because people with the flu are bad at working, and also prevents cumulative years of human misery.
They lock down because they don't want millions to get sick at once, overflow the hospital and break the healthcare system. The flu doesn't overflow the hospital every year. Seem like there's still peoples still don't know the purpose of lock down. Just because yank load up body bags after body bags into truck and tell prisoners to dig grave, or Indian stand outside the hospital for oxygen and burn their body outside, doesn't mean China should go that route.
I love how people just keep strawmaning my position and thinking I want to let it rip throughout China as it did in the US even though I restatated again and again that the west isn't being strict enough. Covid policies aren't a single binary on-off switch Jesus fucking Christ.
Maybe we just have different ideas about how a ban on bing unhealthy would look like.
I’d like it to be helpful and free of cost or stigma, but certainly in the west it would be rounding everyone over a certain bmi up and depositing them in internment camps to perform manual labor until they meet whatever requirement.
Probably make the camps private, the product of that labor something that’s commodified and have a non-stop rolling reality tv show based in it.
The framing of “being fat” is bad because it doesn’t touch on why people are fat and only addresses their present state, but we can certainly look past that obvious part and assume in good faith the poster isn’t advocating institution of permanent krystal burger nacht with the gutstahpo beating you up and carting you off to fat camp brought to you by Carl’s Jr.
Otherwise you should also be for banning cigarettes, alcohol, cars, being fat etc
Despite the best efforts of those who make money off of them, all of these things are still significantly easier to avoid than the most infectious virus known to man.
Yes, long covid is that big a deal, and it gets worse every time you get it. And if it continues to spread uncontained everyone is going to get it over and over and over for the rest of your life, until everyone is so wracked with the burden of disease they can't function.
Millions of people weren't fighting against covid restrictions in the US either, but western media took a handful of astroturfed protestors and turned them into a country killing movement. You have no idea what is happening in China right now anymore than I do.
Billionaire think tanks and bourgeois business owners in the West hag poured endless amounts of time and money into fighting covid safeguarding measures.
And this is a Western, pro-capital news source that's choosing the stories and the slant. I'm not saying this didn't happen, but why is this the discussion and not the tens of millions dead and disabled in the West.
I am again repeating that the Guardian was at the forefront at slandering Jeremy Corbyn in 2019.
And I'm saying this as someone who reads the Guardian regularly... they certainly downplay covid deaths in the UK and hyper focus on China. Like this article, why did they need to connect covid and a labour protest?
:LIB:
What's the alternative? Keeping this up forever? I just don't think that's realistic at all, people are gonna be pissed if they have to go through lockdowns every few months for the rest of their lives.
Lol, why even bother with Socialism then? It's all part of the same struggle. We're living through a massive disabling event and you want them to defer to Capital. That is liberalism.
I dunno maybe I'm too drunk on a western viewpoint on this, maybe the zero-covid policy isn't really a big deal to most Chinese but it seems like people are kinda fucking tired of it, nobody wants to live in a state of emergency for the rest of their lives.
I'm not sure why you couldn't minimize the impact with mandatory vaccinations (maybe even yearly) and a bit less restrictions rather than full lockdowns all of the time.
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Yeah, I just live in the alternative where I’m terrified of catching a disease that will permanently debilitate me every time I leave my door.
I would shoot someone to live under zero covid. I would happily take that forever than this hellish nightmare forever
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Occasional government enforced lockdowns along with widespread testing and tracking that makes it unlikely you’ll get covid?
Or frequent self-inflicted lockdowns out of fear because of sky-high covid rates and also still catching covid?
I know which one I’ll fucking take
yeah, thank youwhat a fucking ridiculous assertion to make. just the anxiety and stress alone from living in the total shit hole of a country i (and i assume you too) are living in , will give me some kind of chronic illness i think. i cant count the nuumber of issues ive started having after this nightmare began and i never stop thinking about how they wouldnt even be there if i were literally anywhere sane and that generally tends to respect human life over capital
fuck this place fuck it so hard every day i find myself fantasizing about some cool new action video game coming out, in which another 9/11 happens (involving just politicians and capitalists and etc....all fictional obviously) im so fucking over this goddamn fucking shit fucking garbage fucking place
Seriously. I’ve somehow managed to avoid catching covid yet, but just the anxiety I have constantly about this has probably taken years off my life. My mental health was at a peak when the pandemic hit and earlier this year I checked into a psych hospital.
The basic fact that not only has my government at best abandoned me and at worst tried to kill me, even the people around me every day don’t seem to care about my or anyone else’s wellbeing, and it’s fucking devastating.
lucky you (not catching it).. im sorry you also can understand where im coming from though because the last few years it basically has felt like someones runnign the "hell simulator" on my consciousness from somewhere. i hope you are doing better after the psych hospital, coincidentally i had just come out of an inpatient setting that i had been in for like 2.5 months, when those first covid articles popped up (like the cusp of 2019/2020). ive had it twice and my mental state definitely feels worse, and whether or not its directly from the covid hardly even matters as its the way my mind has been functioning throughout the last year or two (this is after both of the infections).. im so just, for real, i cant believe anyone on this site is arguing that we need to just accept "this" essentially.... like why are you even a socialist (or anarchist) then? its just disappointing to be honest
im really sorry you can relate though :-/ im just going to send good vibes your way, hope we both get through this shit (and i mean this word relatively, extremely relatively) unscathed :anarchy-heart:
You too comrade :soviet-heart:
Yeah, most people here don't know Chinese people who actually have to live through zero-Covid. From my experience, only retirees are actually supportive of the policies with everyone else at best tolerating it for the sake of the more vulnerable. Yes, living in a depraved society that's trying to pretend Covid isn't real is a dystopian nightmare, but the million dollar question is do Chinese people realize that zero-Covid is preferable to a society that has given up on Covid?
This is the classic tailist vs commandist problem that all orgs have to face. We all know the science about what society ought to do to combat Covid. But what happens when that society doesn't fully see the merit of zero-Covid? Like, do people here honestly believe zero-Covid would've been possible in any Western society that prioritizes personal freedom over collective health even if that society were socialist? Unless that society's socialist party just straight up enforces martial law and drops the hammer on protesters and people who break quarantines, no Western society, socialist or capitalist, has the popular mandate to enforce zero-Covid, certainly not a zero-Covid that's projected to last for years.
Fortunately, China is not of the West and various precautions like wearing surgical masks have long being normalized before Covid. But their patience isn't gonna last forever. Like, no present human society, not even China, is going to tolerate living under zero-Covid conditions for more than a decade.
Maybe if they had access to a more effective vaccine, and if the rest of the world wasn’t constantly incubating vaccine & immunity evasion. Capital wants a global market to play in, but won’t accept the governance required to ensure that market doesn’t kill the host.
Don't they have a better vaccine by now? If they don't then I guess the caution is more understandable, but I though their vaccines aren't THAT much worse than Pfizer & friends.
Pfizer just updated their booster for the BA* variants. Bad Covid policy will keep this a moving target for the rest of our species history.
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There's a nasally administered vaccine that provides mucosal immunity (no transmission) but the U.S. refuses to fund it.
I think there are two versions internationally available, I want to say China and Cuba but I'm not sure off the top of my head.
So yes, there is a better vaccine available. Plus there's the weird rumor the military has a universal vaccine but I never saw any hard details on that.
They have the vaccine, but peoples don't want to take it. We have to realized that China with 1.4 billions peoples will have different opinions on vaccination. The cpc achievement on educating the population is outstanding, but that doesn't mean there not gonna be percentage religious nuts that act like western right winger Christian nuts.
Every day I wish more and more that these types of christians were as oppressed as they think they are.
"Minimizing the impact" is still millions dead and disabled.
How do you know that for sure? It's millions dead in a shithole like the US where the government just doesn't give any fucks. I'm not convinced there isn't a more sensible middle-of-the-road way between constant state of emergency and just not giving any fucks.
Also don't Cuba and Vietnam have looser Covid policies? How are they faring wrt to the death rate?
Because vaccines don't stop the spread and offer limited protection against long covid. Are y'all not getting that regardless of your vaccination status, there is a limited amount of times you can catch a virus that attacks your immune system, your microcirculatory system, and all your organs?
Is long covid really that big of a deal for most people? I know exactly one person with a mild form of long-covid (sense of smell got fucked up) and I know a bunch of people that got it two or more times with no long term effects. I also only indirectly know of somebody dying from it.
Almost everybody I know that got vaxxed didn't really suffer too much from it. Also this year's wave is much smaller at least in my country, way less deaths than a year ago from now. My nurse friends aren't reporting any major surges in nearly a year.
Covid is nasty but I don't think it's going to be the end of us, I think a lot of people on this site are a bit too :doomer: about it. Honestly when it comes to pandemics we got fucking lucky, could have been a way nastier virus.
Go to Google News and search Pediatric Hospitals.
Looks like a low vaccination rate problem. In most articles experts are calling for more kids getting their boosters, which yeah I would completely agree with, boosters are cool and good and I would consider it a prerequisite for lifting strict zero-covid.
Again, how come Vietnam and Cuba don't have hundreds of thousands of deaths without having a strict zero-covid policy?
Deaths of vaccinated people have surpassed non vaccinated deaths
I'm def pro vaccine, but vaccination is only one tool amongst many.
The article is paywalled, here's an archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20221123125303/https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/11/23/vaccinated-people-now-make-up-majority-covid-deaths/
The article is fairly scant on details but it seems the point it's trying to make is get the updated booster because your old vaccine immunity evaporated, which uh yeah makes sense. It doesn't look like the vaccines got worse, just that people refuse to get their boosters.
If I put in the effort to find the research that shows that countless people with vaccines and boosters were killed and disabled, will it change your mind? Like I can do it, but I suspect that you're not going to budge.
I get that vaccines aren't miracle silver bullets and some people are gonna die regardless of whether they're vaccinated or not.
I still think it's just plain fucking unrealistic to keep zero-covid going for the long term. The world collectively (save for a few countries) fucked up with dealing with Covid and that's not just gonna change, all countries are going to have to find ways of living with it.
Better drugs are coming out. Getting covid in 2023 will be easy safer than in 2022.
Edit
reread that
Vietnam did have a strict zero covid, now they have thousands dead. Cuba had their borders locked, now they also have thousands dead. In both cases we have no idea how many hav long covid; which is why our pediatric hospitals are packed with rsv cases, because a significant chunk of the US population is now immunocompromised. We can stop now. You're clearly on board with some number of social murder.
Everybody is on board with some number of social murder. Otherwise you should also be for banning cigarettes, alcohol, cars, being fat etc. A lot of human activities and behaviors are potentially hazardous yet we indulge in them, I don't see how this is any different. People die from the flu too, why don't we have zero-flu policies?
Also it's not like I'm saying China should imitate the west, just that there is probably a more tolerable middle-ground.
You pretending that chinese people aren't gonna be pissed with policies like these in the long term is just plain idealism. There's literally a person from China in this thread saying they're fucking sick of it already.
Also looking at Cuba it doesn't look that bad, it seems they got through the worst of it like many other countries: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/cuba/
Good question I’ve actually been asking that for years. During flu season we should 100,000% do screening tests for flu at peoples workplaces and schools and quarantine and isolate those who are sick. Also mandatory vaccines and masks in public places.
It would save thousands of lives yearly as well as save millions of dollars in “productivity” because people with the flu are bad at working, and also prevents cumulative years of human misery.
Sure I agree. I just don't think weeks long flu lockdowns forever would be a good idea.
Sure, but I’d much rather be told I have to quarantine for a week for flu exposure than be out for a week for having the fucking flu
And I’d much rather the guy who came into work next door with the flu gets told to quarantine for a week than me getting the flu from the cashier.
They lock down because they don't want millions to get sick at once, overflow the hospital and break the healthcare system. The flu doesn't overflow the hospital every year. Seem like there's still peoples still don't know the purpose of lock down. Just because yank load up body bags after body bags into truck and tell prisoners to dig grave, or Indian stand outside the hospital for oxygen and burn their body outside, doesn't mean China should go that route.
Dude, I'm done. Go :LIB: at someone else, please.
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I love how people just keep strawmaning my position and thinking I want to let it rip throughout China as it did in the US even though I restatated again and again that the west isn't being strict enough. Covid policies aren't a single binary on-off switch Jesus fucking Christ.
I guess Cuba and Vietnam are liberal too, huh?
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Enjoy your brain damage.
Holy fuck, no
That person is 100% right.
Framing the idea that letting people eat without top down nutritionist enforcement is social murder? Jesus I hope that's a minority opinion.
Maybe we just have different ideas about how a ban on bing unhealthy would look like.
I’d like it to be helpful and free of cost or stigma, but certainly in the west it would be rounding everyone over a certain bmi up and depositing them in internment camps to perform manual labor until they meet whatever requirement.
Probably make the camps private, the product of that labor something that’s commodified and have a non-stop rolling reality tv show based in it.
The framing of “being fat” is bad because it doesn’t touch on why people are fat and only addresses their present state, but we can certainly look past that obvious part and assume in good faith the poster isn’t advocating institution of permanent krystal burger nacht with the gutstahpo beating you up and carting you off to fat camp brought to you by Carl’s Jr.
Despite the best efforts of those who make money off of them, all of these things are still significantly easier to avoid than the most infectious virus known to man.
Yes, long covid is that big a deal, and it gets worse every time you get it. And if it continues to spread uncontained everyone is going to get it over and over and over for the rest of your life, until everyone is so wracked with the burden of disease they can't function.
They tried that in Beijing and peoples rejected it.
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Millions of people weren't fighting against covid restrictions in the US either, but western media took a handful of astroturfed protestors and turned them into a country killing movement. You have no idea what is happening in China right now anymore than I do.
Billionaire think tanks and bourgeois business owners in the West hag poured endless amounts of time and money into fighting covid safeguarding measures.
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And this is a Western, pro-capital news source that's choosing the stories and the slant. I'm not saying this didn't happen, but why is this the discussion and not the tens of millions dead and disabled in the West.
Because it's a noteworthy event? It's not like the Guardian refuses to report on COVID deaths in the West
I am again repeating that the Guardian was at the forefront at slandering Jeremy Corbyn in 2019.
And I'm saying this as someone who reads the Guardian regularly... they certainly downplay covid deaths in the UK and hyper focus on China. Like this article, why did they need to connect covid and a labour protest?
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