On lemmy.world I posted a comment on how liberals use 'tankie' as an invective to shut down dialogue and received tons of hateful replies. I tried to respond in a rational way to each. Someone's said 'get educated' I responded 'Im reading Norman Finkelstein's I'll burn that bridge when I get there' and tried to keep it civil.
They deleted every comment I made and banned me. Proving my point, they just want to shut down dialogue. Freedom of speech doesn't existing in those 'totalitarian' countries right? But in our 'enlightened' western countries we just delete you.
Go ahead liberals. Call me a tankie. See if I give one ten thousandth of a fuck. Literally such a low-tier insult. “Uhh its like… uh…you support this large cool looking machine that stopped Color Revolutions and was responsible for Liberating the Eastern Front during World War II” “Yea, I do😐” “😨”
Tankie means you approve when a communist state uses military/tanks against its own people... Not against a Nazi state. I would reconsider if you really want to wear that label with pride..
Tankie just means "any communist I don't like" at this point. Take your McCarthyism and complete ignorance about color revolutions elsewhere.
At what point does being clowned on by an entire instance spur self-reflection?
Look what people wrote as replies to my comment, look how the upvote downvote numbers are, think.
My key takeaway from this post is: people on lemmygrad say they are interested in discussion and all those other instances are oh so bad, because they block them or doenvote them or call them tankies, which people on lemmygrad interpret as slur.
At the same time, you get down voted to oblivion, when you even write the definition of tankies to someone, who calls himself one. People who are pride to be a tankies onLemmygrad: cherished People who criticise this in anyway: laught at.
And simultaneously everyone who calls anyone else except him self a tankie no matter the context is automatically a liberal, when Servers defederate them, they are all facists or love fascists
People making strawman arguments when I say in a discussion that I don't agree with Stalin ("ohhh so capitalism is sooo much better" - no, its not, and I didn't say that, I can disagree with capitalism and stlinism at the same time, go figure)
And people defending (literal) tankies get upvoted, people who don't get down voted.
This server has lost one of the strongest tools in material dialectic: (self-) critical thinking
I really hoped I would find interesting debates here, but this is a circlejerk
At what point will self reflection kick in? At what point t people in an echo chamber realise its one?
If you don't send tanks into hungary, the nazis will do pogroms and construct concentration camps there. Not sending tanks is inhumanly cruel.
Mathematician 1: 1+1=2 Mathematician 2: 1+1=2
Debatebro: Muh echo chamber!
Yeah, cause stating "tankie" means "every communist I don't like" is the only truth and like saying 1+1 =2
Also comparing societal questions to mathematical ones is totally unconcerning
/kappa
Marxism-Leninism is a branch of science. What I'm saying is that we all get the same results because that's how science works.
Everyone who has in interest in science knows that you can't prove opinions, but only facts. You can prove stuff like "capitalism is destroying the ecosystem" or "China masacered the Uigurs" you can't prove stuff like "Stalin was right" or "the bests way to interpret Marx is to consider the context he wrote in"
That's the basic difference between empirical and normative science.
And basically all questions of politics are at least partially normative.
I agree that materialistic dialectics can be used as scientific tools, and are by most people, but science also means, you accept that no one can have the "only true opinion" as empirical facts can be interpreted widely different and no human has ALL information. And even if one had, there are always subjective weightings at play (is human suffering worse than human death? Is animal death worse than human suffering? Is the system more valuable than individual freedoms?)
Science means knowing what you can and can't prove, so if you are scientific, you know that not everybody comes to the same conclusion even when using the same facts.
gonna need proof of "China masacered[sic] the Uigurs[sic]" that doesn't cite the far-right extremist Falun Gong cult, its "news" site The Epoch Times, or its Western mouthpiece, fundamentalist evangelical Christian pastor Adrian Zenz.
So what's your problem then? The tanks were sent and the nazis were crushed. Also, krushchev sent the tanks, not stalin. What's your problem with stalin?
What's my problem with Stalin?
I could not have described my problem with talking to people here better than you demonstrated it in this simple question, even if I would have used 100 words.
Yeah it seems the problem is that you are a liberal. You calling us woke is a sign of being a wrecker.
Ahaha it gets better every comment. -(Wrong) Assumtions about my political believes -ranting about stuff I day don't even say (classical strawman)
This is a joke that just keeps on giving :D
It's in the title. It's the new woke.
Try reading what thread you're in first.
Also: Would you send tanks into hungary?
Yeah, but I didn't say anywhere that I agree with the OPs on the other server.
I think the word tankie gets used inflationary by centrists that don't know what it means, but that's not what u want to think. You want to put me in a box in your heads ;)
That's what a liberal would say.
A liberal would also dodge all questions that make imperialists uncomfortable, like whether they would send tanks into hungary.
And it just goes on. But I do dodge the questions, I'll give you that. I'll even tell you why: I came here to have interesting discussions on how to create a better society. Communists are in the defense and neoliberalism is omnipresent, connecting and organising are more important then ever, part of connecting is sharing experiences with others online. But after I was in this community for 10 min. I realized, that I won't get that here. Majority of people here is just trying to vilanise everyone who remotely challenges their believes, put them in a box and then being proud they stand up against someone bad. So recently I'm just doing it for the fun and giggles (and therefore not putting effort in answering difficult questions which are actually complicated). The way people really think they are making a point when in reality they just show their own superiority complex isquite entertaining after all.
But the question about sending tanks is important because with this we could weed out nazi enablers.
Sure, because there is only black and white. Either you choose violence in every scenario or u are Nazi lover.
Flawless logic.
So this means you would not send the tanks?
The nazis will now put all non-nazis in hungary into concentration camps.
Nazi enabler.
Edit: You could have avoided most of the violence (that the nazis will inflict on innocent people now) by sending the tanks.
You want to put me in a box in your heads ;)
Hey Mr. Actually Laughing, that's what you came in here to do. Don't want to fit in the box? Don't be a square
Oh I don't do, and really don't need to prove that to some online bible stalinists. But its funny what your dogma glasses let you think is a square ^^
"Noooo I am totally not a liberal! I am an anarcho-bidenist-gonzaloite with juan guaido characteristics"
-liberals wanting to not be called liberals
There's that empty liberal appeal to an assumed normative opinion again, combined with "uhh actually you have now proven my nebulous non-point by asking a basic question"
My man is floundering
What is your opinion on the standing rock protests and the Kentucky state massacre
Also the 1956 Hungarian coup attempt that the epithet "tankies" comes from was literally full of nazis lmao
That's correct, specifically a state that uses tanks against its people in revolt.
However, people on Reddit (and on Lemmy now) basically use it to refer to any leftist they have a disagreement with.
Well saying tankies support using tanks against civilians gets you down voted on lemmygrad.
No tankies here though, all just libs propaganda
/kappa
Thats such an obvious strawman, i dont think i need to answer that ;)
Because if you would answer that you would have to admit that the wokes were right.
This is a rhetorical trap called "reality".
Sometimes it kind of of makes me feel really irritated in a way because like, a lot of these people who are so overly concerned over "tankies", don't have that energy directed at fascists or reactionaries? They seem more concerned over "tankies" than reactionaries or fascists who are in power in various places and are hurting people. Like they will make a post or whatever denouncing "tankies", but where is that towards fascists? or reactionaries? If anything all they do is help fascists and reactionaries whether they are aware of that or not.
This is liberal mental space, full of "freedom of speech". Liberalism is a cancer which leads to right extremism. And social democracy leads to liberalism. If you exclude ML from discourse, you eliminate whole left wing point of view consequently.
omg i just had the misfortune of wandering into this thread, https://lemmygrad.ml/post/806853 i am so glad we have our own space where we can safely laugh at these fools. omg.
Holy shit what an insufferable group.
"Define Tankie"
Red fascist
Who defines a buzzword with a buzzword ffs.
Also! (Paraphrasing)
[...] people who justify genocides. [...]
'scuze me what the fuck? Who here says genocides are cool and good actually? We are like the first fuckers to point them out and scream about them???
And even more!
Comrade Spood
Now that's dose of Anarcho-Debilizm let me tell you. "Just press the communism button Xi and we'll succeed no problem! They will just let us exist and everyone will love each other :3"
And it just still keeps going!
Educate yourself. / Please change and grow as a person. / Read a book.
Motherfuckers I read too much compared to your sorry asses.
I refuse to believe there's actually 1.6gb of anarchist literature in existence that's not supplemented with lots of random unpublished PDFs and saved blog posts that are rife with poor grammar and spelling errors.
"I have" doesn't mean "I've read", what a pretentious dumbass.
In the second part of this pic she tells the reader not having read any of it.
Hilarious how she doesn't even have a problem admitting it's all a matter of fitting the edgy cyberpunk aesthetic of blue hair, computers, skateboards and slapping stickers around. All about individual image and no political dedication.
And I can understand listening to theory audiobooks instead of reading them, although I think it's worse as it's harder for you to re-read lines and take notes, but... While skateboarding? Can you imagine yourself attempting to make any sense of a Das Kapital audiobook while playing basketball? Probably just to be able to say "yeah i've already read it" and nothing else. Once again, all about aesthetics.
I also refuse to believe this person is a real human being and not some Fed or Fed adjacent bootlicker. lol
Yeah it was torture. I tried to keep it civil and lighthearted and actually engage but they are so programmed it's almost knee jerk comment reaction at this point.
Also fun and great that so many Lemmy instances won't federate material that threatens their worldview. I mean, I'm 100% anti Nazi anti fascist and anti authoritarian but what does that even matter right? How dare I say there might be a different way to view say Cuba China Vietnam or North Korea...
"These gentlemen think that when they have changed the names of things they have changed the things themselves. This is how these profound thinkers mock at the whole world"
My favorite Engels tweet.
It's as much analysis as you can expect from the userbase of Tumblr lite.
Let's be fair to them, at least they aren't reactionary. Still, unfunny "uwu" memes mixed with Lockheed Left behaviour does not paint a much more enjoyable scene.
And I had the misfortune of not resisting to participate in it. Do not recommend.
oh dear. I told myself i wouldn't engage. (narrator: but he engaged). Just trying to gently nudge an anarchist towards materialist analysis, i'll try resist getting sucked into any arguments for my own sake.
Like moths flying into a bug zapper: we know it will hurt, but we just cannot help it.
It's also happens when liberals talk about foreign policy. The reduce critics of US foreign policy and NATO "America bad." Which is exactly as reductive as the hyperbolic critique they're trying to make.
A lot of this comes from the community from the streamer whose name starts with the v and who used to go by Irish Lassie. His community is especially toxic when it comes to using the term tankie as a pejorative.
And they don't even keep the smear to people that support the Bolsheviks. They've been saying that about Noam Chomsky and Jeremy corbyn and basically anyone that has been critical of NATO in the last few years.
A lot of this comes from the community from the streamer whose name starts with the v and who used to go by Irish Lassie. His community is especially toxic when it comes to using the term tankie as a pejorative.
And they don’t even keep the smear to people that support the Bolsheviks. They’ve been saying that about Noam Chomsky and Jeremy corbyn and basically anyone that has been critical of NATO in the last few years.
Imagine calling fucking Chomsky a tankie XD
If someone calls me a tankie I roll my eyes, but what makes my blood boil is the term "red fascist." What the actual F? I would have been in a fascist concentration camp for at least 3 reasons
No need to resort to suppositions; just look at Thälmann.
The term of "red fascist" is not only (purposefully) insulting to the memory of actual MLs who came under repression and execution from the hands of fascists (and ignoring that in many fascist states they were the forefront of resistance against it, see: the PCE under francoist Spain), but also dangerous as it blurs fascism as a word with a meaning, making actual fascism harder to identify and, thus, to combat.
It's why it's really funny that there's a decent amount of libs trying to pretend that Lemmy (either .ml or as a whole) is this super "tankie" thing when they're really the opposite
Like, if the rest of the Lemmy universe was "tankie" we wouldn't need Lemmygrad in the first place
It's pretty funny that liberals see themselves as proponents of open debate and rational discourse, but in practice they start freaking out as soon as anybody challenges their dogmas.
Real "my girlfriend goes to another school" situation, except the girlfriend is their respect for other people
Totally agree. Edgy Russian conquest apologists is far more apt. I hate the modern use of the term “tankie.” “Tankies” were at least communist. Had some ideas and principles. Neither Russia nor China has communist core economic systems.
You used so many words to say that you do not have a clue regarding how the economic system in China functions.
As Hakim or Yugopnik (I can't remember exactly) said, "tankie" is the new "commie"
Yugopnik I think from memory. He was saying how libs can't say "commie" because its such a dated word and nobody takes it seriously (except some conservatives who still say it unironically which is actually hilarious😂). It's too much associated with redscare era propaganda. Tankie doesn't carry this baggage but has exactly the same function.
It might be interesting to start a conversation on the appropriate comm there about whichever rule is being enforced (check the modlog) and challenge the rule.
If you mean the blahaj 196, i doubt it will do anything, because it's apparently this rule by their mod:
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By the way, it seems that moderators in 196 are deleting those comments from lemmygrad posters in a way that appear as visible while seen from lemmygrad while they appear as deleted by mods from any other instances (or so I suppose, I do not know very well how does Lemmy work). This is happening even if there is no breaking of rules in sight.
I got 11 upvotes on a Ho Chi Minh quote in the clown shoes thread. Was that all you guys?
I see it got deleted. Ho Chi Minh should have known better and organize Vietnam's liberation from colonialism through confederated and horizontally-organized municipal communes, I suppose.
I’ve talked about this before, albeit the topic was about self‐identified anticommunists, but I am sorry to say that it applies to a lot of leftoid noobs as well. Anybody who poses obviously loaded questions like ‘why is it being a “lib” to say that governments who repress the human rights and civil liberties of minorities are not practicing leftism in good faith? the same governments who have horrifically and violently crushed workers rights movements?’ does not need to be dignified with a serious response. You can’t make these bipeds educate themselves no matter how good your evidence is; it simply isn’t a matter that’s within your hands.
Do something else: unionize, agitate for better working conditions, exercise, train with a weapon, do some volunteer work, contribute to volunteers (like Food Not Bombs), or engage with communists or communist sympathizers who are very clearly asking in good faith. Personally, I spend my most productive time studying modern history, and I’ve amassed a respectable répertoire of knowledge. I can confidently say that you’ll learn more about capitalism in decay from me than you’ll ever learn from any horseshoe theorist or dullards saying ‘red fash’ unjokingly.
Call them boaties because NATO sent 19 warships to surround and blockade Lisbon in 1974 after Portugal overthrew fascism and started nationalizing industries and redistributing land.
From Rogue State by William Blum, chapter 17
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More from chapter 18:
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