i've always wondered why someone hasn't started a non-profit business to start selling goods and services, in which they should be able to out-compete the for-profit enterprises, since they can sell at cost just to break even, or sell at less of a markup.

you could get one going, then use what would be the "profits" (since you can't keep them) as seed funding a second similar non-profit in a different industry, then a third, by then the 2nd one could seed fund a fourth, and so on and so on until eventually, you would have expanded into every industry. and over time, since you can always out-compete the capitalist, you would have monopolized every industry with non-profit enterprises.

depending on how you structured it, you could stipulate some kind of collective social ownership, or each industry could be run as a non-profit worker cooperative with workplace democracy.

i am sure there are a thousand little reasons why this might fail, but i don't see any big gotcha? it seems like a sound idea. i guess maybe the capitalists would be willing to run at a loss to try and stop you, but that's still a good outcome? maybe try to make it illegal? i am not sure how you could make it illegal to sell good and services at break-even prices. price controls, ok fine, we will just have more money for seed funding.

i guess TLDR the ability to run a not-for-profit business seems like a pretty big weakness for capitalism.

  • joshieecs [he/him,any]
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    4 years ago

    That particular thing is easily avoided by selling products directly online. Or you appeal to some niche of consumers (like socialists) who might be willing to pay a few dollars more for a product to know it was made by a worker cooperative. At least until you could establish a successful model, and start accumulating surpluses to expand.

    I understand you are saying these kinds challenges would exist for any market, but my main response is that you haven't really described a challenge that would be unique to a non-profit worker cooperative. Any business that comes along to sell shirts is going to face the same issues. But it is clearly not an impenetrable barrier, because we do see new enterprises successfully selling shirts from time to time. And we see new successful capitalist enterprises of all different kinds.

    And sure, even as a worker cooperative, you would still be a capitalist enterprise operating under capitalism, so you would not be able to avoid all the ethical problems that go along with that, including sourcing materials or environment harms, and so on. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, a non-profit worker cooperative model can't change that.

    The only idea I have really presented here different from starting any new business, is to use some accounting tricks that would build seed funding for more worker cooperatives rather than profits for capitalists. Capitalists will not play fair, but we don't have to play fair, either. If you could get one enterprise established, say based on the goodwill of a certain market segment, then there is nothing stopping you from using these same methods of capitalism to undermine other capitalists enterprises, except you would be able to undercut any expectations for profitability (if they expect 4% margins, you can settle on 2% surpluses for your fund). You should be able to produce better products and/or at a lower cost. If you open a new chain of merchandisers called The Leftorium, where all the zoomers want to do their shopping, you might use the same kind of markups to gouge the capitalists, since you bring in a certain demographic they really want to sell to.

    That said, I think producing shirts would not be the right place to start. You would need to get going with something with low capital costs and high labor costs, since in the worker cooperative model, labor is easy to come by capital is not. So you wouldn't want to build or buy a shirt factory, or anything brick and mortar. I know you were just picking an arbitrary example, but the shirts, you might say, are just not a good fit.

    • FalunDong [she/her,any]
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      4 years ago

      I just wrote out a whole long response to your comment that somehow got deleted so I apologize that you'll get a shorter one.

      First, yes worker coops and new businesses exist and survive. But the OP is talking about taking over entire industries, right? Niche markets won't do that and certainly won't build up enough capital to expand fast enough either

      Basically the big issue with your idea comes down to taking less of a profit to undercut and hopefully drive out competition. When you say I'm going to only ask for two percent instead of my competitions four percent, you're implying that you both operate at the same margin, which assumes the same costs. Even in a dream scenario where you pay your employees a fair wage and come out with the exact same bottom line as the competition (labor is the leading cost of any business, good luck with that), youve now got to divide that 2% by every single employee (worker owned, they're getting a cut too remember?) and you'll end up with a fraction of a percent left to contribute to a seed Fund.

      Theres no "accounting trick" that can multiply your liquid cash, the word you're looking for is alchemy.

      • joshieecs [he/him,any]
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        4 years ago

        youve now got to divide that 2% by every single employee (worker owned, they’re getting a cut too remember?)

        In a non-profit this is not possible. Employees only make their salaries. What makes it a worker cooperative would be workplace democracy, all the workers would be able to vote, basically as board members. No one truly "owns" a non-profit.

        Not sure what I said that could be construed as 'multiplying liquid cash'. That doesn't even make sense.

        • FalunDong [she/her,any]
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          4 years ago

          Actually a cooperative is one of the few nonprofit structures where you can distribute surplus margins back to members.

          The alchemy comment was in reference to where you said you would use accounting tricks to accumulate seed funding for the next venture. There's no "trick" that can help you save money faster, you'll still be operating at for-profit margins likely worse because again, your system is designed to put employees in control of how much they are earning. (and of course you've accepted a profit margin of half your closest competitor)

          It sounds nice for one company but won't be earning enough to spawn others as quickly or effectively as you believe it will. Cute little neighborhood coop? sure. Titan of industry crushing giant corporations changing the landscape of capitalism? Never.

          • joshieecs [he/him,any]
            hexagon
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            4 years ago

            Unless otherwise indicated a worker cooperative is a for-profit institution, with the profit going to the worker-owners. A nonprofit is a completely different kind of institution, which cannot redistribute surpluses as profits under any conditions. But a nonprofit can be structured as a cooperative. "Nonprofit cooperative" is a very tiny category of businesses, as far as I can tell. If you want to be really technical, a nonprofit can't be a true worker cooperative because it's not "owned" by anyone, including the workers. But it can be structured to be governed by the workers collectively.

            https://cdi.coop/how-are-nonprofits-and-co-ops-different/

            a tax-exempt nonprofit organization cannot distribute profits to members or investors, while a cooperative corporation generally distributes profits based on members’ participation in the cooperative (through patronage dividends)

            The only mechanism the workers would have to distribute surpluses would be through bonuses, but that is pretty thin ice. Total compensation for nonprofit employees must be "reasonable" and "not excessive" so that would possibly allow for bonuses, but not to a degree beyond the typical range of total compensation for the type of employees receiving the bonus.

            A for-profit cooperative, on the other hand, would be doing this as a standard practice.