I'm making a better effort to meditate, but I don't know if I'm doing it right. Focusing on my breathing and releasing thoughts is hard and if I relax too much, I fall asleep.
If you have related issues when meditating, have you found better ways to meditate or alternatives that give you similar results?
Be tolerant of yourself. Acknowledge your fidgeting and wandering thoughts. If you try to fight who you are, you're not meditating. Notice the fidget, do your best to quiet it, then get back to meditating. Same with random thoughts.
And sometimes it's just not the right time to meditate. Try again later under different circumstances.
Thank you. I think I fixate on doing things incorrectly a lot when that kind of thinking is counterproductive for meditation.
Yeah, people who love meditation and try to get others to do it kind of forget that whatever transcendence they've experienced is fundamentally rooted in becoming more attumed to themselves.
Which is actually pretty much the definition of irony, I think?
Heck I think "you'll love & understand yourself more" is probably a better selling point than "you'll experience a higher level of being." I think I can understand the former, but the latter is just incomprehensive.
I'd try something else that puts in you in a flow state. I have ADHD, sitting around contemplating nothing has never worked for me.
Try walking through the woods, let go of your thoughts, and try to experience everything happening around you without that experience becoming thought. Empty your mind and be aware of the little noises and movements, the colors and shapes, without
Second going for walks. I can let my mind spin and when I come back its easier to focus.
I'll give that a shot! The weather is cooling down and I've been meaning to be out in the world without my headphones much.
Even with ADHD I've found that if you can push past the initial fidgetyness you can get a lot of good value from meditation.
If it's really out of the question for you, try yoga. It's basically just meditation + stretching and gives you something to focus your body on in the meantime. There's a lot of good YouTube videos and creators out there to do it for free on your own time and at your own pace.
I'll give it another shot. I haven't given a good try in a while and hey, yoga can't hurt.
It worked for me better than meditation, but everyone is different. If you do go for it, just make sure that the videos are explicitly marked as for beginners because they can end up trying some intense or weird poses you're not ready for otherwise. Personally I liked 'Yoga with Kassandra' when I was learning, but everyone's body is different so shop around a bit of she doesn't vibe with you.
If you're not used to Yoga lingo:
- Vinyasa(sometimes called by the more general term, Hatha) Yoga is normally what people think of when they think of yoga. It features reasonably quick pose transitions and usually a variety of poses that hit most of your body.
- Yin Yoga is a lot slower and more meditative. It usually involves passively holding poses for 3-5minutes each and is meant to improve flexibility and joint health. The stretches are longer but can be as intense as you want them to be.
- Most others types of yoga are quite a bit more specialized or trendy and you should probably stay away from until you're sure it's something you like and want to do.
I was just about to mention Dr. K! The first time I saw meditation that wasn't just "sit in silence with your eyes closed and clear your mind" was when he had
xQc (one of the most ADHD human beings on the planet) do a meditation where he stood up and raised & lowered his arms in sync with his breathing. Really broadened my view of what meditation could look like, since I'd only ever done the "standard" kind and it never really worked for me.Haven't seen the video before, but I'll be sure to give it a listen on my next walk! Dr. K is easily one of the best communicators I've ever seen on mental health.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
There's lots of good answers in here: Note it with detached acceptance and then return to the focus, use a mantra as a verbal focus, adding a physical element like walking or yoga, let the thoughts be and observe them as a focus.
Have you tried meditating after exercise? That's one of the few times my mind is particularly calm.
Falling asleep sometimes just happens to some beginners, or it could be an ADHD thing from understimulation. However sloth/torpor is one of the five hindrances so it can also be a real long-term concern for your practice. If this is the case, then it could mean you are either fighting too hard against stimuli like thoughts, or else that you are too complacent and are not exerting enough effort on concentration. Anything anyone has recommended here could potentially help. Generally speaking, you want to make an effort to concentrate but not an effort to dismiss thoughts. If you have a thought that seems important like a task, trust yourself that you'll remember it or that it will come back up if it's important.
And when you find yourself latched onto a thought, don't punish yourself. There's nothing wrong with it - it's part of the process. Recognize it and that you've attached to it, accept that this happens and it's not bad, and let the thought go back on its way down the stream of thoughts.
repeating small phrases or mantras in my mind has helped me to calm the linguistic part of my mind. it doesnt really matter which phrase but it might help if you find it personally meaningful and can find a 'rhythm' to think or say the words to. for bodily restlessness consider repetitive or structured full body motions, others have suggested yoga which is likely ideal in a physical health sense, also consider dancing, drumming, or other similar movements as long as you are careful to stretch and avoid repetitive strain injuries etc., plenty of cultures and subcultures have sought altered states of mind through ecstatic practices as well as inhibitory.
I'd never considered a dichotomy of ecstatic and inhibitory practices like that. This is wild because I stim sometimes and dance when nobody is around and I just sort of feel my body at peace while in motion.
I think I'll look into mantras, though I saw the clear explanation of 'Aum' in the YouTube video posted here so I think I may try that first.
Thank you!
Try doing yoga, lighter routines are relaxing too except it's impossible to fall asleep and pretty hard to fidget while holding a pose.
When I meditate, I often don't need to do anything with the thought but acknowledge that it's just a thought. It passes on its own if I don't take the bait.
I can't meditate in the traditional manner, and for me the closest thing is world-building in my head. I basically write a book without the actual writing, and get lost in some imaginary place. It's the closest thing to meditation I've been able to achieve. Not sure if that's technically dissociating or not at this point so take that with a grain of salt.
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I do worldbuilding too. I don't necessarily find the healing I've come to expect from meditation, but that could just be a me thing. I keep trying to do a chill beach or vacation episode but I crave magic and cool swords.
I feel that craving for magic and cool swords!! I've somehow given myself some really great healing moments with world building where the person I imagined wanting to be able to have a conversation with would say the things I needed to hear ...that sounds crazy and I'm incredibly vulnerable sharing this, but fuck it:
I once had an imagined conversation with a "therapist character" where I said all the things tormenting me (ex: I am an idiot, I am irredeemable, I am worthless) and the therapist character simply argued (ex: No, you're not any of those things, are worthy of love and understanding) and it really weirdly helped with my negative inner monologue. Meditation couldn't really give me that. Sorry for the rambling response, hope it's actually relevant to what you've asked.
I really like that. I mean I do the worldbuilding to pass the time or have wish fulfillment to cope with shitty days, but I never really had my characters talk to me about my feelings like that. I was always afraid that would be too cringe. I hate that the idea of being cringe in the privacy of one's own mind can get in the way of a potential avenue for healing.
Thanks for being vulnerable. It makes me feel okay experimenting with a coping strategy.
Thanks for not making me feel cringe for sharing
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It is crazy how many negative 'voices' take up residence in our heads that we have no business carrying around. I hope you can find some inner peace comrade!!
To me they ended up as the same thing. Give me a mandala coloring book and I will 'zone out' for countless hours without a thought. Maybe depending on your flavor of ND, meditation should actually require stimulation. It's an interesting thought!
I have ADHD, autism, and major depression, and meditation has been a fairly powerful tool for me (when I can will myself to use it) when it comes to straightening out my thoughts so my brain isn't a big bowl of stressful spaghetti.
What's worked for me is just allowing the thoughts to race, but not allow myself to interact with them. Eventually, they'll run their course and settle down.
In practice, it kind of looks like this: I'll focus on my breathing, but I won't worry too much about quieting my mind. I only meditate when I'm extremely distraught about something. So naturally, the worries will rise to the surface and try to take over. While I'm focusing on breathing and settling down, the thoughts will come. Money issues, loneliness, responsibilities I'm avoiding, depression, dissatisfaction, etc. I'll allow the thoughts to come into the forefront, and I'll "look" at them. I'll acknowledge them, I'll allow them their space. But I won't let myself to bring them into focus and give them any type of thought. I won't engage with them. I'll just...let them be. Objectively. Once I observe the thought, it'll usually pass by and make room for the next stressful worry to show up.
EVENTUALLY, the majority of the things that are bothering me will have made an appearance. I'll observe each one, and let it pass by. After years of practice, I've learned that the thoughts and worries will run their course and I'll finally have the space to truly focus on my breathing and decompress. After all is said and done, I'm usually left with relatively organized thoughts and I am able to think clearly, without everything swimming around in my head, simultaneously trying to scream at me.
I really liked your comment about thoughts running their course. Something I feel like meditation has really helped me notice is how fleeting thoughts really are, even when not trying to meditate. When you develop the practice of not indulging in them while still "giving them their space" (so not forcing them away either) they do just seem to fade away on their own. When they're not being fed they retreat. Some thoughts like to show up more than others, and some like to stick around longer, but meditation really gave me a confidence to let the thoughts be and trust that they'll fade once they've had their tantrum. If I'm lucky and I notice I'm on a funk whenever I'm not meditating I can see it's because I've been indulging in whatever worry or angry thought for the past whatever minutes or hours. And then I can use the confidence from meditation to remind myself that if I can stop indulging in and extending those ephemeral thoughts then my mood appears sorta silly and it's curious that I got so upset over what feels like vapor in my mind lol. It's just very thick sometimes
First off, I would say to stop thinking about it as being easy or relaxing. It's an active practice, and it takes a lot of work to get started.
In most mindfulness practices, you aren't really trying to just empty your head and think of absolutely nothing the whole time - the point is more that you are intentionally focusing on one thing (your breath, or a candle flame, or the feeling of love or whatever), and when your mind wanders, which it will constantly, the whole practice is about recognizing that and bringing your focus back to where you want it to be. Boom, one rep. Your mind wanders again, you see that and bring it back. Another rep.
So the idea really is not that you are emptying your mind, but rather that you are training your focus to go where you want it to go, and eventually to stay there better.
It's like training to hold a kettle bell at arms length. When you start off its just hard, and you won't be able to do it long, but by putting the weight back up and trying again, you're getting stronger in those muscles, and the next time you can do it longer. Similarly, you can really only train so much at once, and you're going to need to take a break and come back again later. In many ways, that's the reps that you are doing, which is to come back to the practice again after being away. You do all you can for one day, and then when you come back and sit down the next day, boom that's a rep.
It's a thing that doesn't really get easier, you just get better at doing it.
Your focus is a muscle, and you're probably not used to training on it so specifically. Much like how if you go out and play a sport or just roughhouse with some friends, you're using your muscles and getting stronger, but you're not specifically training your muscles, and that type of training will only make you so strong. If you want to be able to bench press 200 lbs or whatever, you'll almost certainly never be able to do that just by playing a lot of baseball at the park; you need to go to a gym and use the equipment in a very particular way. Similarly, if you want your focus muscle to be able to instantly drill down and focus on a particular thing and hold it without wavering, then you need to sit in zazen and practice directing and holding your focus, and the breath is the perfect target for that - largely because it is truly boring, but it's always there, and you can feel it, and you will know exactly when you are not focused on it.
The kinda side benefit of making that focus muscle strong is that you get way better at using it without even trying. You'll be able to at least be present in the moment with minimal or zero effort as your practice develops, and then down the road you'll be able to achieve the full meditative state at will, even just standing in line at the grocery store or when you are experiencing something you really want to be present for. It gets hard to turn off, eventually. By that point you'll know what to do with it, but you will definitely not be the same.
I wanted to comment on this to reiterate that meditation is like exercise. Most likely you're not going to be good at at at first - you're flexing a "concentration muscle" in a way it's not used to. So at the beginning it is good to not expect it to be a walk in the park. But one should stick with it regardless. Set a realistic time for meditation, perhaps don't meditate for too long at the start. And progress may take a while. It's like starting exercising or learning an instrument.
And also, as the comment says, don't think of it as forcing your mind to be empty or forcing yourself to think of nothing. If you are trying to stop thoughts then you'll set yourself up for some disappointment at first and you will likely start forming judgement statements about yourself as being "bad" at meditating.
Instead of forcing thoughts to stop, take a brief notice of the thoughts that comes up and then let them pass without indulging in them - so don't judge them when they arise and don't follow where they want to take you - and use your breath as an anchor. And those thoughts may even be statements like "Ahhh! Why can't I focus!", if so then try to look at it like objectively like a scientist studying the mind. You can say "Ah, there's anger", and then don't follow up with it, don't indulge it, just go back to your breathing. Another thought will sure to happen, just return to the breath.
Everytime you notice that your mind has wandered go back to your breath, and that's a "rep" like CarbonConscious said. And you know what, you're gonna be doing a lot of reps! Because you're new to meditation you're mind is naturally going to wander very quickly. That's normal, don't judge yourself for it. It's a new exercise for this muscle. In fact, every time you notice you are mind wandering you are improving that muscle. So you shouldn't be upset if you mind wander. If you start judging yourself, good or bad, also just take note and don't indulge and return to the breath. Everytime you notice it and focus back on the breath you are flexing that muscle.
There was an earlier post where others give their advice on how to meditate that I'll post in case you find it interesting, meditation on the breath is very common, but there are other forms of meditation too: https://hexbear.net/post/3451587
I think it's hard because of trying to manage yourself. Don't fixate on trying to "manage" your thoughts --- that is an active attaching and engaging with the thought in a way that's counterproductive to what one's usually seeking in meditation. Let them arrive as they do and don't attach to them or attach to the attachings to them, in that endless spiral of infinite fractalized jacob's ladders of connections of thoughts into new thoughts. Seeking to "manage" them is already attaching to them to do something active with them, and then it becomes much more difficult if not impossible to detach from them because it's like trying to throw something from your hand while your fingers are closed around it. Let them run their course passively, and experience what that feels like. If you're fidgeting or you're in pain, just notice it, don't try to manage it.
Just keep practicing. you'll notice that even as the thoughts form in your head and drift in front of your face and begin to branch, if you practice to not attach to them or "try" to do anything with them, they'll attach and build in that fractal way, but more weakly with less "coherence integrity", and the out-branching forms and shapes develop more hazily, and with less defined "ends" with which to keep connecting, and they will eventually become vague or faded and de-cohered enough without your "managing" that it becomes natural to let them float off on their way, out of your space-of-attention. kind of like if you've ever dissociated or spaced out, and sensory input kind of becomes "blurred;" where though you're aware of the presence of things in front of you or sounds or words being made/said, they have no coherent form that is gripping your active conscience and just kind of "happen" while you are there in a vacant state.
For me it kind of feels like that, but with that unfolding spiraling fractal construct of thoughts and feelings. They show up drifting in your face and you just kind of, mentally, with practice, become better at existing in a state comfortable with dissassociating from them, and that infinite-construct drifts from behind your eyes forward, and then moves from your face into the middle distance, as it grows and branches with less and less energy and its ends get blurrier and blurrier, and its forms get less and less descript and conspicuous, and at a certain point, it is blurry and nondescript or insignificant-in-detail enough to allow to pass from your awareness. Almost like happens when you're incredibly tired and slipping in and out of a hypnagognic about-to-fall-asleep state; where your thoughts get incoherent and blurred enough that it's much easier to let them slide by without gripping it because there's not much of significance to grip; you don't feel there is a "reason" to keep engaged with it, because it doesn't speak to or serve anything in your moment.
The more you do this the more comfortable you can become in the space observing your thoughts, and how it feels to be present with them without trying to "control" them.
That's fascinating. I can see how my framing of 'managing' is me getting in my own way. I feel like I have to do something with my thoughts or that some thoughts are inherently more valuable than others. I think about wasting time and optimization. It's weird because I think I can see capitalism/ productivity brain.
And that's kind of the goal I started with when making this post. I wanted to meditate, correctly, so I could get my shit together and become more productive. Not to heal, or find a way to relax, or just experience meditation for what it is.
If I'm understanding your comment, meditation is entering a state of mind where one doesn't need to prioritize or focus on any thought. Like it's abolishing the hierarchy of thoughts imposed by one's circumstances?
You mentioned that when you relax to meditate, you fall asleep.
Do you think it may be that you are just low on sleep? It might be good to just let that happen or to try meditating around when it would be okay to fall asleep for the night.
I am very low on sleep. I'm bad at it, and I'm starting to improve my sleep hygiene. If meditation as I initially interpreted it gets me to sleep, then maybe that's a useful practice to explore. Thanks!
It's funny, in making this post, I'm hearing people saying it's okay for my body and mind to act the way it does. There's this layer of acceptance that makes me glad I brought this question to hexbear.
Sleep is important! If meditation gets you sleep I think that is a good thing.
Hexbear is overall pretty good at empathizing and trying to understand and help - and often has folks that have relevant personal experience so they don't try to offer bad advice or make it all about themselves. I think it has a pretty good culture around this kind of thing!
I highly suggest this whole series and the following one. But exercise six helps with restlessness/worry as well as sloth/torpor.
https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/resources/satipatthana-audio/
Suggestion is to do exercise six so you know where it's going. Then do the whole series, practicing with one every day for a week.
The series after is this one.
https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/resources/breathing-audio/
Both are based on the Buddha's own practice and teachings. And the meditation instructor is a well respected scholar of early Buddhism.
The short answer is, when sleepy or dull recall that you're going to die on the in breath. Let go on the out. If restlessness is present, pay more attention to the out breath.
Here's the 2 minute video that got me into meditation and that I personally find really motivating. Helps rationalize/demystify it a bit so you don't get down on yourself when you experience some turbulence.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
