After a year of genocide, I feel like there's no point in trying to convince these people. They are actively supporting the perpetrators of the genocide, and it's beyond Oct. 7 now -- there's no excuse for not knowing. There's a constant flow of evidence, yet these people remain purposefully ignorant. Or maybe they take pleasure in those pictures of dead babies. Take pleasure in the death of those 'barbarians' -- These people should be shamed. They shouldn't be allowed to take these evil positions without any backlash.
I think the only way the left can truly combat leftist meme syndrome is by branding it ableism against people who have less than perfect vision
“As revolutionaries, we don't have the right to say we are tired of explaining. We must never stop explaining. We know that when the people understand, they cannot help but follow us.”
Thomas Sankara
just take a break for now instead of stopping agitation altogether. when you pick back up again, try convincing different people or using different means. libs are maximally libbed up right now because of the US presidential election but that won't last. this time next week there will be more fertile ground, one way or the other. take heart comrade
That's more what I was trying to get at in my comment, haha. Theory and practice must meet each other, new knowledge must result in new theory. If something isn't working, adjust!
For me, I'm taking an extended break from Lemmy.ml and debatebroing .worlders. I am not abandoning explaining or agitizing, but trying to re-analyze where I went wrong in trying to convince others.
do you think every inch of the golf course countries
count as the imperial core? deprivation is not hard to find.Every inch? No.
Enough that it makes leftist organizing effectively useless in most of the major core nations effectively neutered? Yes.
Recently logged out of my Lemmy.ml account, for similar reasons. Crucially, it's important to know that ideas come from material conditions, debatelording has little impact. As Imperialism crumbles, more people will become radicalized, and it is our job to steer them properly. Don't give up, re-analyze your methods!
Agitprop and organizing is good, debatebroing is not as useful, essentially, it isn't good propaganda usually. The dialectic is ever in motion, it's about proper application.
Agitprop and organizing is good, debatebroing is not as useful, essentially, it isn't good propaganda usually. The dialectic is ever in motion, it's about proper application.
Debate broing tends to get people to entrench themselves in their beliefs. Good propaganda (usually art) bypasses that by making them feel something different that they then have to come to terms with. They are far more likely to decide random internet commenter is wrong than their own feelings about something.
Can't be bothered to convince liberals anymore
this IS liberalism (7th type)
To be among the masses and fail to conduct propaganda and agitation or speak at meetings or conduct investigations and inquiries among them, and instead to be indifferent to them and show no concern for their well-being, forgetting that one is a Communist and behaving as if one were an ordinary non-Communist. This is a seventh type.
The possibility that they might suffer overrides doing something about the confirmed suffering of Palestinians
Someone once took umbrage with the fact that I referred to these people as Scum
But it's true, we understand that putting our own comfort and safety above the lives of others is a cowardly and shameful act when we can actually do something about it
Hell, this is literally the origin story of Spider-Man (at least the non-movie version, the movie version is just an Iron Man fan-boy with no real pathos) for the people who need a fictional comparison to sympathize with people
convince them that sabotage is morally correct in immoral situation, voting is not politics, its idealism (paraphrasing malcolm harris)
its correct under kop, its correct under cheeto, its always correct
I, John Brown, am now quite certain that the crimes of this guilty land will never be purged away but with blood. I had, as I now think, vainly flattered myself that without very much bloodshed it might be done.We are marching in a compact group along a precipitous and difficult path, firmly holding each other by the hand. We are surrounded on all sides by enemies, and we have to advance almost constantly under their fire. We have combined, by a freely adopted decision, for the purpose of fighting the enemy, and not of retreating into the neighbouring marsh, the inhabitants of which, from the very outset, have reproached us with having separated ourselves into an exclusive group and with having chosen the path of struggle instead of the path of conciliation.
And now some among us begin to cry out: Let us go into the marsh! And when we begin to shame them, they retort: What backward people you are! Are you not ashamed to deny us the liberty to invite you to take a better road! Oh, yes, gentlemen! You are free not only to invite us, but to go yourselves wherever you will, even into the marsh. In fact, we think that the marsh is your proper place, and we are prepared to render you every assistance to get there. Only let go of our hands, don’t clutch at us and don’t besmirch the grand word freedom, for we too are “free” to go where we please, free to fight not only against the marsh, but also against those who are turning towards the marsh!
Why would it be important to convince avowed liberals? They'll come around once there is an actually existing leftist movement that can offer them something real. In the meantime, liberal working people don't have any power to use for evil, so who cares what they think. We should be talking to the millions of ordinary people who are sick of this shit. Our task is to teach those people about socialism and show them that they have another option: collective action.
I gave up forever during the last midterm where the libs in my life kept talking about all the good Biden did, and when I asked them materially what good literally the only thing they could say was that he extended the child tax credit. That was it. That was how Biden Saved America.
There was just no arguing with them at that point. That was their hill and they were gonna die on it. He is the best president they have ever seen because of that one tiny thing.
I just gave up. I had brief hope when this genocide started that libs would maybe care about that and the monkeys paw delivered on that one. The libs do care about genocide, they're on the side of the genocide.
They're not redeemable. Maybe people who are smarter and more patient than I can fix them but I can't.
I’m legit curious what this option you think American liberals have. Right now it’s Harris vs Trump neither of those options offer any help to those suffering. I’m wondering what I’m not being convinced of.
Communism is the alternative. Electoralism is a false method for gaining material improvements because of who controls economic power and therefore State power, namely the bourgeoisie.
Revolution is necessary, which requires abandoning the idea that Dems can be shifted left and the idea that if Reps lose they will crumble and a leftward party will take its place, both of which are false notions due to making no analysis of the material conditions that give rise to their current positions.
There are 4-6 options in your presidential ballot, the fact that you can only think the 2 pro-genocide candidates as the only valuable candidates says a lot about you
Right now it’s Harris vs Trump neither of those options offer any help to those suffering. I’m wondering what I’m not being convinced of.
If this is the limits of what the system can offer or even tolerate: then the system should be destroyed.
Biden's administration was not materially better for the domestic working class or marginalized people in anyway. What fucking Trump policies did they even bother to repeal? Kids are still in cages, Biden deported more people than Trump did. We lost legal abortions under Biden with no attempt to pack the court. Why the fuck do you expect Harris will be better?
You are throwing Palestinian lives under the bus when you say the potential of a small advancement toward your political goals at home takes precedent over their ongoing genocide. Your government is doing this to them. Votes, despite what liberals say, are endorsements of policy. When Democrats see they have your vote unconditionally, what incentive do they have to ever give a good goddamn about your needs when they could be courting the failsons of boat dealership owners instead?
The solution to two fascist, genocidal parties is not to support the slightly less bad one. It's to take up arms against both of them.
vote if you want, but since voting will not improve the situation you have a responsibility to do other stuff. I think people are getting too worked up about the election, communists and liberals alike. If the Greens got 5% for federal funding it'd be nice, but I think communists should view electoral power as something that comes from a strong workers' movement, not something where we do well in an election and then that magically conjures class struggle. We have to organize, there is no shortcut
