Are you tired of spending years in big tent parties making real progress getting people on your side, only to have the bourgeois collaborators/infiltrators take over the party and purge it of socialists/communists? Are you tired of even hearing the word "vote" when it comes to the bourgeois policy/personality trade show every four years?

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The method never breaks down. And when State pressure occurs, the members all discuss, vote, and repeat until a binding resolution has been reached. Since the Party is united in their line, the Party acts as one unbroken force and infiltrators can only reveal themselves by not following Party line. No liberal method can do that. Even after continuous pounding, these ML's don’t break.

Imagine the relief you’ll feel on all kinds of issues. No longer do you have to argue with liberals masquerading as socialists one weekend a year about the "unrealistic nature of socialism". No longer do you have to toil away at getting your Party to do something materially beneficial to the movement only for an opposing faction to cancel all of the work you've done … I’m going to run over my hand with this 6,000-pound car. That’s the power and protection of Democratic Centralism.

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  • zifnab25 [he/him, any]
    3·
    4 years ago

    In reality, democratic centralism in practice today is all about agreeing on a way to proceed from the current material situation, and after a resolution has been agreed up, everyone acts in unison so it actually gets done, instead of gridlock and diffusement. If you don’t agree with the party line, then why do you want to be a member of the vanguard party?

    Not everyone knows what the party line is going to be before they join. And simply going along with the majority requires a certain degree of faith in the institution and its major movers. Consequently, a vanguard runs the risk of splitting or dissolving when major disputes are reached. Exacerbating wedge issues within the opposition is a common means of creating schism and dysfunction within a movement. The Civil Rights Movement of the 60s was plagued by these schisms, ultimately deteriorating in the 70s and dissolving in the 80s.

    Now imagine trying to organize a BLM protest along the vanguardist line. How many people do you think would agree in advance that "Defund the Police" was a winning message before it was popularized during the marches? How many people are you willing to eject from the movement for failing to follow the leader of a leaderless movement on this line?

    I don't see this as a means of building or maintaining momentum. I see it as a poisoned pill that sickens and kills a movement before it's taken off.

    • cpfhornet [she/her,comrade/them]
      ·
      4 years ago

      Not everyone knows what the party line is going to be before they join. And simply going along with the majority requires a certain degree of faith in the institution and its major movers. Consequently, a vanguard runs the risk of splitting or dissolving when major disputes are reached. Exacerbating wedge issues within the opposition is a common means of creating schism and dysfunction within a movement. The Civil Rights Movement of the 60s was plagued by these schisms, ultimately deteriorating in the 70s and dissolving in the 80s.

      Well when you join, you don't have to know anything. PSL often recruits cadre from street actions with no previous history with Marxist thought. During the candidacy process, the party lines are described, and those candidates discuss them and are given further clarification by senior party members. By finishing your candidacy process and choosing to continue on to be a full voting member, you are agreeing that you understand the party lines, why they are what they are, and that in order to build a movement, Party members must agree on them. Anything that is reasonably debatable is something that you can always raise as a topic for re-examination. Democratic centralism is merely acting in unison in public. Disagreements within the party are to be discussed cordially and even if the Party goes the other way, yes you are expected to go with it. But that doesn't mean its not something that can be brought up again later if there is a change in circumstance or if the chosen path meets unexpected hardship. Again, you are signing up to a party and saying you trust the other members and in return they will trust you. There are a lot of benefits that come with this, and all it takes is for you to not go behind the will of your fellow cadre.

      Now imagine trying to organize a BLM protest along the vanguardist line. How many people do you think would agree in advance that “Defund the Police” was a winning message before it was popularized during the marches? How many people are you willing to eject from the movement for failing to follow the leader of a leaderless movement on this line?

      Do you think the PSL wasn't involved in the BLM movements? Again, the vanguard is not there to lead and direct the movement. The vanguard only becomes involved with State power if the people elevates them to that role. The PSL supports and operates WITHIN people's movements, its goal is not to co-opt them.

      • zifnab25 [he/him, any]
        2·
        4 years ago

        Well when you join, you don’t have to know anything. PSL often recruits cadre from street actions with no previous history with Marxist thought. During the candidacy process, the party lines are described, and those candidates discuss them and are given further clarification by senior party members. By finishing your candidacy process and choosing to continue on to be a full voting member, you are agreeing that you understand the party lines, why they are what they are, and that in order to build a movement, Party members must agree on them.

        I've never worked with PSL, so I don't have experience with this. I'll definitely have to look for an organization in my area, as I'm curious to see this in action.

        Do you think the PSL wasn’t involved in the BLM movements? Again, the vanguard is not there to lead and direct the movement. The vanguard only becomes involved with State power if the people elevates them to that role. The PSL supports and operates WITHIN people’s movements, its goal is not to co-opt them.

        I don't doubt PSL members organized and operated during the BLM protests. But I don't see BLM organized under ML principles.

        • PhaseFour [he/him]
          ·
          4 years ago

          I don’t doubt PSL members organized and operated during the BLM protests. But I don’t see BLM organized under ML principles.

          BLM is a slogan and a movement. It is not an organization nor a party. It is not organized by any principle. There are ML parties and other DemSoc organizations working within the movement. There are also Liberals, Anarchists, Right Libertarians, etc.

          It is really frustrating to see you argue against Democratic Centralism while have absolutely no clue how it works.

          @cpfhornet just described the most basic component of Democratic Centralism: a candidacy period, education on party line, commitment to party line following candidacy. Your response was "I don’t have experience with this."

          It is okay to lack experience. But dismissing Democratic Centralism after playing Secret Hitler is very weird tho

          • zifnab25 [he/him, any]
            ·
            4 years ago

            It is okay to lack experience. But dismissing Democratic Centralism after playing Secret Hitler is very weird tho

            It's a reference point I had that I assumed other people may have also experienced, as it was a fairly popular board game back in college.