I'm torn between wanting to cut up my membership card and knowing i should fight from within. if this cryptotory scum becomes pm it'll be ten more years of blair
Gotta disagree there. The only good things in this godforsaken country came from Attlee and Wilson. The only real chance to oppose British neoliberalism has to be through Labour, unfortunately.
That's absolutely true. I know a lot of people who focus exclusively on electoralism. I'm happy to use it pragmatically for harm reduction and shifting the Overton Window.
The Tories were successfully shifted from central right to far far right in the last decade, not from within, but by Farage and UKIP and the BNP.
Far right influence threatened to steal votes from the Tories, so they shifted to be far right themselves and managed to stay in power.
There's no reason a similar thing can't happen with Labour. I'm not sure exactly what a left wing version of Farage would look like, but I think we need one.
The Tories were successfully shifted from central right to far far right in the last decade, not from within, but by Farage and UKIP and the BNP.
I don't think that's really true at all. Tory ideology hasn't really changed that much over the last couple of decades except for the EU and accepting defeat on a few token social issues. The shift towards Euroscepticism was largely driven by events - Black Wednesday and the Maastricht Treaty caused outrage on the right and led directly to the creation of UKIP and the ERG, then there was the wave of immigration from Poland, then the endless wrangling over the EU Constitution/Lisbon Treaty, the euro debt crisis, and then finally Cameron's decision to try and ride the surging anti-EU sentiment by promising a referendum.
I know it's easy to pick out terrible things they're doing and argue they've got worse, but they've always been doing terrible things. Twenty years ago they were still fighting to keep Section 28 and some of their MPs would openly attend mask-off neo-Nazi meetings that used the pre-1994 South African flag as a centrepiece.
There’s no reason a similar thing can’t happen with Labour. I’m not sure exactly what a left wing version of Farage would look like, but I think we need one.
The Greens have been doing a pretty decent job, but the problem is it's extremely easy for the other parties (even the Tories) to pretend that they care about the environment and human rights and stuff. Leaving the EU was a very clear-cut, straightforward policy goal, so it was impossible for any governing party to somehow pretend they were already doing it.
I still want to participate because I know there's hope. the CLPs do a lot of good, hell, there's a guy in mine that hands out the Communist Manifesto to newcomers.
I’m reducing my membership donations to the minimum and am only staying on to vote for SCG/Momentum candidates of which my local MP and various Councillors are. Also NEC candidate elections are currently ongoing so if you do decide to quit make sure to vote in those first for some Socialists. Electoralism is pretty shit for the most part but grassroots Labour is still pretty socialist (especially after Corbyn boosted membership) which makes it a good place to meet like minded people to organise with which is the real aim.
No. Please shut up. Americans with no concept of having a real left party to do battle in in their country need to stay out of it.
This is perfectly timed to alienate the left before the NEC vote which is extremely important to control of the party. They want the left to quit right now. There isn't any appetite among the important names to start a new party so it ain't fucking happening. Fighting within is literally the only path currently. Unless you intend to go join Red Fightback you should stay exactly where you are.
Not to dox myself here, but the "American" claim doesn't apply in this circumstance. I've abandoned electoral politics entirely on my part. You do you, but I'm not having any more part in it.
Electoral politics are still valid and valuable within the UK. There is absolutely zero possibility of a non-electoral victory in an unarmed nation where socdem is the furthest left viable position. We need to elevate class consciousness to achieve that and a victory within the labour party to give company shares to workers spearheading workplace democracy and a massive boost in the material interests of workers sparking that consciousness is that path to do it.
With that aside. There is an argument for an insurrectionary-lite movement of the north after Scotland leaves, but those are only likely to feed back into the electoral politics and we need control of a party when that ship starts to sale.
I will respectfully disagree here, the forces of capital will never allow it, especially as all of the UK media is owned by the reactionary class and US/UK intelligence. They will sooner see everyone dead before they allow anyone to the left of Blair run the nation again. I'm gona focus on direct action and dual power. You do you.
You're mistaking Lenin's words on electoral politics not being a pathway to socialism for electoral politics not being a pathway that empowers the non-electoral movement.
There is zero appetite for a revolution, zero possibility of a non-electoral movement. The quickest pathway to creating these things lies in an electoral policy that changes our workplaces. We need to de-atomise the population and inspire collective mindsets of an us vs them worker vs capital mindset again. The best way to do this is to give workers shares forcing workplace democracy to popup everywhere and driving an extremely fast boost in the political education of the population. The people will quickly learn that they're labour vs capital in their workplaces through this and class consciousness will rocket. Unions will rocket and non-electoral activities will take off. That's when the non-electoral track becomes viable.
Electoral politics are not an end, they are a means. We can't achieve socialism with them but we can achieve the conditions required to advance the non-electoral push. Unlike the conditions America finds itself in we actually do have the ability to win victories via the party and have demonstrated this. A single term won't give us socialism but it'll advance everything else we do.
They haven't even sent me my ballot yet. Perhaps this is an insidious plot to rig it, then again probably just shitty technology and messy bureaucracy.
There are a number of things within the party that the left is actually very strong at taking. The Youth position is decided by electoral college made up of 50% unions and 50% youth members, the older membership can't vote in it. The same for the new disabled position but for disabled membership instead of youth obviously.
Getting anyone into a position that is for open-selection is exceptionally valuable even if they're not a leftist, open selection will prevent libs getting into seats as MPs and then never ever being possible to replace. The existence of Labour MPs everyone popularly hates who sit there for decades is a product of not having open selection, we can get rid of half the terfs if we have it by selecting a different rep for their seat.
We don't need hard leftists to do things that are going to benefit us in the long term. People like Laura Pidcock are extremely valuable even though she disagrees with everything else we want because she does want open selection.
Ask yourself what the Blairites would want you to do, and do the opposite. Starmer is clearly trying to get the left to purge ourselves out of the party. We shouldn't give him what he wants.
How the Democrats and Labour operate are very functionally different, though. A purge in the Democratic party isn't going to look the same as a purge in Labour. I doubt Keith wants to lose the actual votes of the left in a GE, he just doesn't want them to have any say in the party. "Vote Red No Matter Who" essentially.
I considered it when the report about internal sabotage got leaked as well. What convinced me was one sniveling comment on Twitter by some Blairite saying they hoped we all left. It reminded me that we can actually take control of the party again. These are terrible setbacks, but this just shows how much progress we've made in the last five years. Save for something monumental and unforseen, Labour is still the only chance Britain has of socialism, so I'll play the electoralism game.
Thanks for the link. I know a Corbynite government wouldn't have solved all our problems, but the five years of opposition we got from him moved socialism back into the political limelight. Even if harm reduction and shifting the Overton Window is the most electoralism can do, I think it's worth somewhat supporting for that, but I can absolutely see why you'd think differently.
I'm torn between wanting to cut up my membership card and knowing i should fight from within. if this cryptotory scum becomes pm it'll be ten more years of blair
Entryism never, ever works, comrade. Chop that shit up and never look back.
Gotta disagree there. The only good things in this godforsaken country came from Attlee and Wilson. The only real chance to oppose British neoliberalism has to be through Labour, unfortunately.
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That's absolutely true. I know a lot of people who focus exclusively on electoralism. I'm happy to use it pragmatically for harm reduction and shifting the Overton Window.
Seems like all that happens in British politics is it shifting right. The last few years have been an absolute shitshow.
Nah I think we just need a ghoul.
The Tories were successfully shifted from central right to far far right in the last decade, not from within, but by Farage and UKIP and the BNP.
Far right influence threatened to steal votes from the Tories, so they shifted to be far right themselves and managed to stay in power.
There's no reason a similar thing can't happen with Labour. I'm not sure exactly what a left wing version of Farage would look like, but I think we need one.
I don't think that's really true at all. Tory ideology hasn't really changed that much over the last couple of decades except for the EU and accepting defeat on a few token social issues. The shift towards Euroscepticism was largely driven by events - Black Wednesday and the Maastricht Treaty caused outrage on the right and led directly to the creation of UKIP and the ERG, then there was the wave of immigration from Poland, then the endless wrangling over the EU Constitution/Lisbon Treaty, the euro debt crisis, and then finally Cameron's decision to try and ride the surging anti-EU sentiment by promising a referendum.
I know it's easy to pick out terrible things they're doing and argue they've got worse, but they've always been doing terrible things. Twenty years ago they were still fighting to keep Section 28 and some of their MPs would openly attend mask-off neo-Nazi meetings that used the pre-1994 South African flag as a centrepiece.
The Greens have been doing a pretty decent job, but the problem is it's extremely easy for the other parties (even the Tories) to pretend that they care about the environment and human rights and stuff. Leaving the EU was a very clear-cut, straightforward policy goal, so it was impossible for any governing party to somehow pretend they were already doing it.
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Neolib ghouls have the backing of the media though.
Yeah and the left needs to engage in a decade long effort to build out alternative media.
because it's for the interests of capital. of course it'll work for them because they are sailing with the wind not against it.
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I still want to participate because I know there's hope. the CLPs do a lot of good, hell, there's a guy in mine that hands out the Communist Manifesto to newcomers.
I’m reducing my membership donations to the minimum and am only staying on to vote for SCG/Momentum candidates of which my local MP and various Councillors are. Also NEC candidate elections are currently ongoing so if you do decide to quit make sure to vote in those first for some Socialists. Electoralism is pretty shit for the most part but grassroots Labour is still pretty socialist (especially after Corbyn boosted membership) which makes it a good place to meet like minded people to organise with which is the real aim.
No. Please shut up. Americans with no concept of having a real left party to do battle in in their country need to stay out of it.
This is perfectly timed to alienate the left before the NEC vote which is extremely important to control of the party. They want the left to quit right now. There isn't any appetite among the important names to start a new party so it ain't fucking happening. Fighting within is literally the only path currently. Unless you intend to go join Red Fightback you should stay exactly where you are.
Not to dox myself here, but the "American" claim doesn't apply in this circumstance. I've abandoned electoral politics entirely on my part. You do you, but I'm not having any more part in it.
Electoral politics are still valid and valuable within the UK. There is absolutely zero possibility of a non-electoral victory in an unarmed nation where socdem is the furthest left viable position. We need to elevate class consciousness to achieve that and a victory within the labour party to give company shares to workers spearheading workplace democracy and a massive boost in the material interests of workers sparking that consciousness is that path to do it.
With that aside. There is an argument for an insurrectionary-lite movement of the north after Scotland leaves, but those are only likely to feed back into the electoral politics and we need control of a party when that ship starts to sale.
I will respectfully disagree here, the forces of capital will never allow it, especially as all of the UK media is owned by the reactionary class and US/UK intelligence. They will sooner see everyone dead before they allow anyone to the left of Blair run the nation again. I'm gona focus on direct action and dual power. You do you.
You're mistaking Lenin's words on electoral politics not being a pathway to socialism for electoral politics not being a pathway that empowers the non-electoral movement.
There is zero appetite for a revolution, zero possibility of a non-electoral movement. The quickest pathway to creating these things lies in an electoral policy that changes our workplaces. We need to de-atomise the population and inspire collective mindsets of an us vs them worker vs capital mindset again. The best way to do this is to give workers shares forcing workplace democracy to popup everywhere and driving an extremely fast boost in the political education of the population. The people will quickly learn that they're labour vs capital in their workplaces through this and class consciousness will rocket. Unions will rocket and non-electoral activities will take off. That's when the non-electoral track becomes viable.
Electoral politics are not an end, they are a means. We can't achieve socialism with them but we can achieve the conditions required to advance the non-electoral push. Unlike the conditions America finds itself in we actually do have the ability to win victories via the party and have demonstrated this. A single term won't give us socialism but it'll advance everything else we do.
I find it highly doubtful that they'll be enough votes for the left to take over the NEC
They haven't even sent me my ballot yet. Perhaps this is an insidious plot to rig it, then again probably just shitty technology and messy bureaucracy.
There are a number of things within the party that the left is actually very strong at taking. The Youth position is decided by electoral college made up of 50% unions and 50% youth members, the older membership can't vote in it. The same for the new disabled position but for disabled membership instead of youth obviously.
Getting anyone into a position that is for open-selection is exceptionally valuable even if they're not a leftist, open selection will prevent libs getting into seats as MPs and then never ever being possible to replace. The existence of Labour MPs everyone popularly hates who sit there for decades is a product of not having open selection, we can get rid of half the terfs if we have it by selecting a different rep for their seat.
We don't need hard leftists to do things that are going to benefit us in the long term. People like Laura Pidcock are extremely valuable even though she disagrees with everything else we want because she does want open selection.
Ask yourself what the Blairites would want you to do, and do the opposite. Starmer is clearly trying to get the left to purge ourselves out of the party. We shouldn't give him what he wants.
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Yep. Starmer and co wouldn't be trying so hard to purge the left if they didn't perceive the left as a real threat.
How the Democrats and Labour operate are very functionally different, though. A purge in the Democratic party isn't going to look the same as a purge in Labour. I doubt Keith wants to lose the actual votes of the left in a GE, he just doesn't want them to have any say in the party. "Vote Red No Matter Who" essentially.
thats why im staying put
NEC vote first friend.
I say leave
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I considered it when the report about internal sabotage got leaked as well. What convinced me was one sniveling comment on Twitter by some Blairite saying they hoped we all left. It reminded me that we can actually take control of the party again. These are terrible setbacks, but this just shows how much progress we've made in the last five years. Save for something monumental and unforseen, Labour is still the only chance Britain has of socialism, so I'll play the electoralism game.
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Thanks for the link. I know a Corbynite government wouldn't have solved all our problems, but the five years of opposition we got from him moved socialism back into the political limelight. Even if harm reduction and shifting the Overton Window is the most electoralism can do, I think it's worth somewhat supporting for that, but I can absolutely see why you'd think differently.
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